Reducing Volts and Amps

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Reducing Volts and Amps

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  • #366748
    Ron Laden
    Participant
      @ronladen17547

      Morning guys,

      I am looking at a new project at the moment and I have a couple of questions.

      If I have a 24 volt supply (2 x 12V – 75 amp batteries in series) and a non adjustable 100 amp motor controller is it possible to reduce the output voltage and amps from the controller.

      Ideally I would want the voltage to be 18 volts and have the amps adjustable or if its simpler set to a maximum of 60 amps.

      Also am I correct in thinking that if I have 4 motors wired in parallel from the controller they share the current, so at 60 amps each motor would see 15 amps..?

      Many thanks

      Ron

      p.s. I forgot to say that the motors are rated at 12 to 24 volts and having spoken to the manufacturer a lot of people run them at 24 volts but you have to reduce the available current to under 20 amps so I am thinking 15 amps to be safe. I know if you double the voltage to a motor the speed doubles, the motors are rated at 2400 rpm so 4800 on 24 volt. If I go with 18 volts I am assuming the rpm would increase by 50% to 3600 or isnt it that simple.

      Edited By Ron Laden on 11/08/2018 09:14:13

      Edited By Ron Laden on 11/08/2018 09:32:29

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      #31968
      Ron Laden
      Participant
        @ronladen17547
        #366749
        Robin
        Participant
          @robin

          There is a wonderful thing called Ohm's Law

          Amps = Volts / Resistance

          The three are inter-related. The current (Amps) flowing through your motor (Resistance) is determined by the power supply (Volts).

          To get a meaningful answer, what are you trying to achieve?

          #366751
          Ron Laden
          Participant
            @ronladen17547

            Hi Robin, I have just added to my post

            Ron

            #366752
            Les Jones 1
            Participant
              @lesjones1

              The motors will only share the current equally if they are providing the same torque. (Current is about proportional to torque. ) To answer your question properly we would need FULL details of the speed controller.

              Les.

              #366753
              Russell Eberhardt
              Participant
                @russelleberhardt48058
                Posted by Robin on 11/08/2018 09:22:28:

                There is a wonderful thing called Ohm's Law

                Amps = Volts / Resistance

                The three are inter-related. The current (Amps) flowing through your motor (Resistance) is determined by the power supply (Volts).

                To get a meaningful answer, what are you trying to achieve?

                Ohm's Law only refers to pure resistance (conductor at constant temperature in its original form). It certainly doesn't apply to a motor.

                What you can do with them very much depends on the spec. of the controller and what sort of motors they are.

                Russell

                #366755
                Russell Eberhardt
                Participant
                  @russelleberhardt48058

                  Deleted duplicate post

                  Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 11/08/2018 09:54:46

                  #366756
                  Robin
                  Participant
                    @robin

                    DC electric motors act as generators. The speed increases until the generated Voltage is the same as the applied Voltage.

                    Starting current is usually enormous.

                    Once up to speed, power consumption is down to load and making it hot.

                    Cheap motor controllers depend on turning it on/off many times a second and varying the on/off ratio.

                    That introduces an interesting 4th factor to the equasion, Inductance. This is the thing that blows up your electronics.

                    If you want 18 Volts, why not use three 6 Volt batteries?

                    #366757
                    Robin
                    Participant
                      @robin

                      Russell you have just volunteered to take over. Well done that man laugh

                      #366758
                      Ron Laden
                      Participant
                        @ronladen17547

                        Thinking a bit more about it, it would probably be simpler to go with 24 volt and safeguard the motors by having a limit on the current.

                        Les, I cant provide full details of the controller, all I know is that it is rated at 12 to 36 volts and 100 amps maximum. I wasnt thinking of modifying the controller but wondering if I can control the amps at the output.

                        The 4 motors would each be driving a loco axle through the same gearing so the torque should be similar to each motor.

                        Ron

                        #366760
                        Robin
                        Participant
                          @robin

                          Limiting the current will limit the torque. Is that what you want?

                          #366761
                          Robin
                          Participant
                            @robin

                            Protection by limiting current is usually achieved with a fuse.

                            #366763
                            Ron Laden
                            Participant
                              @ronladen17547

                              No I dont want to limit the torque but I would have thought at 24 volts and 15 amps the torque would be ok but I could be wrong.

                              With a 100 amp controller and say a 60 amp fuse, wouldnt the fuse blow each time the controller was switched to maximum, thats why I was hoping the max amps could be set or controlled.

                              #366768
                              Robin
                              Participant
                                @robin

                                A 100A controller can handle 100A before it starts to go wrong. It doesn't insist on 100A flowing through the motor.

                                #366769
                                Ron Laden
                                Participant
                                  @ronladen17547

                                  Thanks Robin I do appreciate that but wonder what full power will deliver to the motors, though you are not constantly at full power. 

                                  There is a simple answer to all of this.

                                  I can buy a 120 amp controller with adjustable amps but it is over £200 which I was trying to avoid but if needs must I will have to go with that. I am ok with basic electrics but not with electronics and not knowing I was hoping there was a way of controlling or restricting the current after the controller but if not I will have to consider the adjustable controller.

                                  Regards

                                  Ron

                                  Edited By Ron Laden on 11/08/2018 10:54:21

                                  #366771
                                  Robin
                                  Participant
                                    @robin

                                    Volts times Amps equals Watts

                                    746 Watts = 1 horse power

                                    So 18V x 100A = 1800W = 2.4hp

                                    #366772
                                    Russell Eberhardt
                                    Participant
                                      @russelleberhardt48058

                                      If your controller can't control the current nor the voltage just what is it controlling? Is it perhaps for a brushless motor? Is it perhaps a PWM speed controller? I think more information is needed.

                                      Russell

                                      #366773
                                      Keith Long
                                      Participant
                                        @keithlong89920

                                        Ron you're thinking about this from the wrong end. Your controller will control the VOLTAGE to your motors which will then draw whatever CURRENT they need at that voltage setting. If the motors are running light – ie not driving anything and you set the voltage to 24 volts then they will draw little current. If however you were to lock the shafts and then apply the 24 VOLTS they will try and draw a lot more CURRENT. What blows up in the latter case could be the controller if the motors try to draw more than 100 amp or if could be the motors burning out if the controller can supply all that the motors demand.

                                        Without knowing what current your motors will draw at full load it's pretty much impossible to say what size controller you need, you need to do more homework and supply more information. If you're worried about the motors demanding too much current from the controller then stick a fuse in the lead to each motor and a master fuse in the lead from the controller. With car batteries as the power supply then fuses are essential in any case – have you seen what happens when you short out a car battery?

                                        #366774
                                        Russell Eberhardt
                                        Participant
                                          @russelleberhardt48058
                                          Posted by Robin on 11/08/2018 09:57:11:

                                          Russell you have just volunteered to take over. Well done that man laugh

                                          Not trying to take over, just pointing out that Ohm's law is a minor part of the equation.

                                          Russell

                                          #366777
                                          Robin
                                          Participant
                                            @robin

                                            I have answered this many times, I find it best to start uncomplicated and then progress.

                                            I'm betting Ron has a wicked idea for a killer, arena robot and has bought a bunch of Amp-Flow, rare earth motors to play with.

                                            #366782
                                            Journeyman
                                            Participant
                                              @journeyman
                                              Posted by Robin on 11/08/2018 11:19:55:

                                              I'm betting Ron has a wicked idea for a killer, arena robot and has bought a bunch of Amp-Flow, rare earth motors to play with.

                                              More likely for his 0-4-0 shunter in this ** THREAD ** smiley

                                              John

                                              #366785
                                              Ron Laden
                                              Participant
                                                @ronladen17547
                                                Posted by Robin on 11/08/2018 11:19:55:

                                                I have answered this many times, I find it best to start uncomplicated and then progress.

                                                I'm betting Ron has a wicked idea for a killer, arena robot and has bought a bunch of Amp-Flow, rare earth motors to play with.

                                                LOL, no I am considering using just ordinary everyday brush type can motors and the vehicle is a class 22 diesel loco.. As mentioned they are 12 to 24 volt and they are ok at 24 volt but the manufacturer recommends keeping the amperage below 20 amps so I was thinking 15 amps to be safe. At 12 volt the amperage is listed at 12 amps and the rpm at 2400, the reason I want to go with the higher voltage is it will increase the rpm and that helps with the gearing. With 2400 rpm I wont be able to achieve the desired gearing, it would be ok once running but it would be too high for starting up.

                                                John, the 0-4-0 is all sorted thank goodness, 4 motor,s again but they were easy.

                                                 

                                                Edited By Ron Laden on 11/08/2018 11:46:10

                                                #366786
                                                Les Jones 1
                                                Participant
                                                  @lesjones1

                                                  The speed contoller is almost certainly a PWM controller. It would be possible to design in it current (And voltage.) limiting circuitry. It could limit the PWM duty cycle if the set current of voltage limit was being exceeded. In your application the motors should share the current pretty well.
                                                  Robin, Why do you say CHEAP controllers use PWM. A linear controller for this sort of power would generate a lot of heat and waste energy. The inductance of the motor windings helps PWM to work by trying to maintain current through the winding during the off state of the PWM cycle.

                                                  Les.

                                                  #366787
                                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @sillyoldduffer
                                                    Posted by Les Jones 1 on 11/08/2018 09:42:43:

                                                    … To answer your question properly we would need FULL details of the speed controller.

                                                    Les.

                                                    +1 to that. At least something to go on, even a photo would be useful.

                                                    The problem is there are many different types of motor and many different controllers. You need to identify what you've got. The description 'a non adjustable 100 amp motor controller' doesn't help at all.

                                                    'Ideally I would want the voltage to be 18 volts and have the amps adjustable or if its simpler set to a maximum of 60 amps.' – yes, no and maybe! A better way is to control the motor by pulsing power into it at different rates. Rather than controlling volts or amps directly, the controller reduces or increases the amount of time power is made available to the motor. This has many advantages, not least efficiency.

                                                    If you can describe what you've got, and what it's for, I'm sure the motor experts can advise and explain.

                                                    Dave

                                                    #366789
                                                    Ron Laden
                                                    Participant
                                                      @ronladen17547
                                                      Posted by Les Jones 1 on 11/08/2018 11:44:54:

                                                      The speed contoller is almost certainly a PWM controller. It would be possible to design in it current (And voltage.) limiting circuitry. It could limit the PWM duty cycle if the set current of voltage limit was being exceeded. In your application the motors should share the current pretty well.
                                                      Robin, Why do you say CHEAP controllers use PWM. A linear controller for this sort of power would generate a lot of heat and waste energy. The inductance of the motor windings helps PWM to work by trying to maintain current through the winding during the off state of the PWM cycle.

                                                      Les.

                                                      Sorry Les, but what do you mean by a PWM controller..?

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