I feel sure that you know this already, Mark … but for the benefit of others [including perhaps the aforementioned supplier], it’s worth noting that Meehanite is not one particular grade, but a range of similar materials with specific characteristics: **LINK**

https://meehanitemetal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Meehanite_SelectionGuide_WEBSITE-Version.pdf

The fact that they can confidently supply these variants is, itself, a good indicator of the process control.

MichaelG.

I'd be surprised if any supplier to the model engineering world would be able to give a proper material cert.

Jim

Hi, well I got a couple of pieces of meehanite at two different times, at least ten years ago, maybe even 15 years, from Collage Engineering Supplies, but no certification came with either piece and both pieces were bought at one of the exhibitions. To be honest, didn't even give a thought about certification and I've never had any problems with any of the materials I bought from them in that time period.

Regards Nick.

What is meant by a "proper certificate?".

My personal experience of certification with regards to brazing and soldering alloys, is that this is something to which lip service at best is paid.

A certificate of analysis gives quantitative details of analysis relating to all or specified elements. These cost an arm and a leg whether produced in house or externally. The figures produced relate only to the sample analysed with the assumption that they reflect the bulk. In the 30+ years of running CuP Alloys, I never supplied one. The customer was not prepared to bear the cost.

A certificate of conformity is just that. It is a piece of paper confirming that the material meets a certain standard, which included the manufacturing tolerances relating to composition. Every brazing rod that I supplied had that. It formed part of the label. Generally speaking, UK manufacturing industries and model engineers were happy with that if the alloy performed as expected and the price was right. Occasionally I would provide an extra piece of paper that showed the manufacturing analytical tolerances. There was no charge!

But what some customers actually wanted was a certificate relating to the performance of the brazing alloy. How strong would the joints be? Such guarantees are impossible to get. I certainly never supplied one and I don't know of anyone who did or would. There are so many factors, over which l had no control that would affect such figures. One of these, as many followers of the forum know, is brazing technique.

I believe that all companies offer a disclaimer that it is the customers responsibility to ensure that we product performs as required.

It is possible to buy brazing alloys with an associated strength. This figure can relate to the strength of a drawn rod, which has no relationship whatsoever to the strength of the joints made. At one time you could buy brazing material that had a bonding temperature below the melting point of the alloy.

So, back to the beginning,

"What do you mean by a "proper certificate"?

Or, as mentioned earlier, do you simply trust your supplier knowing that he will keep you well advised such that you do achieve the full potential of his product.

Edited By Keith Hale on 17/04/2021 08:25:27

Odd question. Do I detect a commercial intention here?

Retailers to model-engineers cannot be expected to give QA certificates for materials, for two reasons

Firstly, QA schemes are costly and very bureaucratic, ultimately born by professional organisations demanding full traceability for the finished products they buy; usually under complex management-control plans like ISO900x and its forerunners, including the UK's MoD DEF-STAN technical-guarantee scheme.

Secondly, such schemes are meaningless and irrelevant to us buying small bits of metal for unique hobby projects. We are amateur users not making items "by way of trade" as the law has it, so do not need them!

Even for the trade, by no means all items have to be certified, or to be made from certified materials. .

This is for materials.

'

Finished products made commercially "by way of trade" are a different matter, and only for products covered by particular rules. The paper-chasing may or may not need include the materials, but the ultimate aims include showing the intrinsic safety of the finished assemblies – e.g. boilers and compressor-reservoirs ("Pressure Equipment" in law), and mains-powered electrical equipment.

'

As John and Jason indicate, our treaty with the seller is that we buy at a fair price, material that is fit for our purposes – and it is up to the buyer to ensure proper selection for purpose. That is very much by our choosing materials by own knowledge; and sellers by reputation or if a new name, appearing to be an honest dealer.

Mark – so why do you want traceable QA certificates for cast-iron?

.

I can’t speak for Mark, but … Having worked in Aerospace and Defence, I would consider proper certification to include full traceability of raw materials and manufacturing processes … all the way back to the mine where the ore was extracted,

It can be done, and it is done … at some cost.

… and the moment that certificate becomes separated from the material, the material becomes just ‘stuff’

Mark may or may not want [or need] certificated material … but his post is actually more related to Trademark infringement, which is rife.

“Untraceable continiuously-cast Iron” would seem a more realistic description of the product on offer … and that should be sufficient description for general use [without the need to advertise it by abusing a well-respected trademark].

MichaelG.

Life can be so hard at times !!

.

Not quite the same logic, Jason

… but life’s too short to worry about lack of probity in ebay listings

MichaelG.

.

If ‘Yes’ then it is still the material

If ‘No’ then it’s as I wrote: the material becomes just ‘stuff’

It’s a very simple concept.

MichaelG.

The OP does not say why he wanted, or needed a cert ? Just because he could or for a real need for one ? I had to get a part made that had to be as per original spec. The first task was an analysis of the material of the original part – this alone cost many £00s – in fact it cost as much as the manufacture of the part.

SO if you need a REAL cert expect it to at least DOUBLE the cost of the material. Noel

Best to leave the trademark holders to enforce their rights I think should they find it worthwhile.