Bronze balls in place of steel balls in a Land Rover

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Bronze balls in place of steel balls in a Land Rover

This topic has 34 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 5 February 2021 at 16:47 by peak4.

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30 January 2021 at 21:43 #523798
William S
Participant
@williams
Hello all

I am currently overhauling my Land rover series 2a steering, (it tried to dictate its preferred direction, which was exciting!)

I am nearly there with sorting why it did that, my attention is now on the steering box. As I am sure some on here know, they work on recirculating ball. A course "worm" with a single "thread" nut made up of a ball bearings.

They have a nasty habit of doing this:

Now to rectify this is not the cheapest thing on the planet, and pattern parts are of dubious quality. I have no worry over cost of reconditioning but I would like to prevent the above from happening again in a short space of time. (I know when set up correctly it shouldn't but I would like to know what is peoples opinions on my suggestion)

What would the implications be of replacing the hardened steel balls that travel up and down the worm with phosphor bronze balls?

The worm and nut I belive are hardened and it all sits in an oil bath.

I hope that makes sense and I look forward to your opinions

Many thanks William
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30 January 2021 at 21:43 #30105
William S
Participant
@williams
What’s peoples opinion?
30 January 2021 at 21:50 #523799
old mart
Participant
@oldmart
Iwould worry about the shear strength of bronze in that application, also because bronze is much softer, would they tend to dent. There must be superior extreme pressure lubricants available now compared to those available in the 1950's.
30 January 2021 at 22:31 #523806
peak4
Participant
@peak4
I've no idea of their prices, but have you spoken to these folk?
http://www.ics-steeringspecialist.co.uk/bespoke-engineering/series-one-ii-iia-and-3-land-rover

Bill
(V8 Lightweight SIII)
30 January 2021 at 22:38 #523808
Steviegtr
Participant
@steviegtr
I tend to agree with old mart on that one. It's a shwme you could not change the unit for something better.

steve.
30 January 2021 at 22:49 #523810
Tony Wright 1
Participant
@tonywright1
Excellent
31 January 2021 at 00:53 #523824
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
Toyota Prius electric steering racks are highly regarded in North America as a good quality replacement steering system for vehicles with steering issues. The Prius system is compact, reliable. strong, and can be electronically adjusted for the amount of assist power, 0 to full assist (fingertip steering). Also lots around in wrecks at scrapyards, due to the vehicle's popularity. Just food for thought.
31 January 2021 at 07:48 #523835
DC31k
Participant
@dc31k
Rather than doing some kind of bush engineering on it, which is putting the cart before the horse, perhaps you should do some failure analysis first to inform your current situation.

How old is it? What service/lubrication/adjustment regime is recommended by LR? Has this regime been followed properly in the years since it was made? If you replace it as it was made and service it properly, what is its expected life? Is that expected life greater than your own?

Have a look at the range of available sizes for your proposed p-b balls. If it is being refurbished, will that be an additive process or a subtractive process? If the latter, slightly oversize balls, which are available in hardened steel may assist in tuning the steering to something slightly sharper than an oil tanker.
31 January 2021 at 08:03 #523837
Sam Longley 1
Participant
@samlongley1
Posted by Jeff Dayman on 31/01/2021 00:53:59:

Toyota Prius electric steering racks are highly regarded in North America as a good quality replacement steering system for vehicles with steering issues. The Prius system is compact, reliable. strong, and can be electronically adjusted for the amount of assist power, 0 to full assist (fingertip steering). Also lots around in wrecks at scrapyards, due to the vehicle's popularity. Just food for thought.

Somehow telling me about the great steering & following it up by how many wrecks there are does not equate to a high level of confidence
31 January 2021 at 09:01 #523844
J Hancock
Participant
@jhancock95746
The tiniest piece of stone or metal fragment could have started that situation off.

Can you guarantee the quality of servicing throughout the life of the vehicle ?

My vote on anything but the proper steel balls…………… No.
31 January 2021 at 09:06 #523846
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
This vehicle won’t be older than 60 years. We had a series l until about 1962 when a 2A took its place. Old mart is likely right that the steering design is older than the 2A – likely from the original seies 1.

Landies get far harsher treatment than cars.- the recirculating ball steering was likely considered necessary for ruggedness at that time – it was originally designed as a car/tractor, after all.

I would just bite the bullet and replace it with either a good secondhand unit or a reconditioned spare – steering reliability is important, particularly at ‘high’ speed on the road!
31 January 2021 at 09:20 #523850
Sandgrounder
Participant
@sandgrounder
What would your Insurance Co think of this modification? Mine has even noted on the poilcy for my Kia Picanto that I've had an 'air horn' and 'reversing sensors' fitted as after manufacture modifications.
31 January 2021 at 09:23 #523851
Nick Wheeler
Participant
@nickwheeler
Posted by Jeff Dayman on 31/01/2021 00:53:59:

Toyota Prius electric steering racks are highly regarded in North America as a good quality replacement steering system for vehicles with steering issues. The Prius system is compact, reliable. strong, and can be electronically adjusted for the amount of assist power, 0 to full assist (fingertip steering). Also lots around in wrecks at scrapyards, due to the vehicle's popularity. Just food for thought.

Americans use Prius electric steering columns to add power steering to manual boxes. We tend to use Vauxhall Corsa ones because they're small, cheap, and readily available.

You can't just bung a rack in instead of a box, because there's a lot of geometry that needs to be right. Assuming there's even space to fit it across the car. BMW used steering racks on the E39 5-series, except on the V8s for this reason.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 31/01/2021 09:25:17
31 January 2021 at 10:39 #523863
10ba12ba
Participant
@10ba12ba
Series 1 used a worm and nut steering box. Series 2, 2A and 3 used the recirculating ball box, as the OP pictures.

If Land-Rover thought that PB balls would be better (albeit more expensive) they would have used them. Stick to steel IMHO.

H.

First drove a Land-Rover in 1958, owned 'em since 1972 !
31 January 2021 at 11:12 #523869
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
Posted by Sandgrounder on 31/01/2021 09:20:24:

What would your Insurance Co think of this modification? Mine has even noted on the poilcy for my Kia Picanto that I've had an 'air horn' and 'reversing sensors' fitted as after manufacture modifications.

I thought air horns were not allowed by law on new vehicles unless fited by the manufacturer? It may only be multiple horn devices?

Edited By not done it yet on 31/01/2021 11:13:25
31 January 2021 at 11:55 #523888
Howard Lewis
Participant
@howardlewis46836
My insurers had to think hard about the car being "modified" by dealer fitted fog lamps, and my fitting of air horns.

They eventually considered that improving safety constituted a good reason.

Air Horns, as such are not illegal in UK, otherwise no truck would have them.

What is illegal is to use a horn capable of delivering two, or more, tones separately, for fear of confusion with emergency vehicles So the Rebel tones, or Colonel Bogey had to stop.

Howard
31 January 2021 at 12:06 #523892
noel shelley
Participant
@noelshelley55608
Under NO circumstances change the balls for PB. Use a good secondhand one. When rebuilding the front hubs pay VERY good note and set the trunnion preload just right or you will land up with an uncontrollable 1.5 Ton projectile. It is a point that not many understand – Even our local main agent !!!!! PM me if you want to know more. Noel
31 January 2021 at 13:10 #523906
Samsaranda
Participant
@samsaranda
When contemplating any modification to a vehicle always best to run it past your insurers, they can turn nasty if they find modifications when and if you make a claim. A couple of years ago I had a hoist fitted in the boot of our car to lift my wife’s disability scooter in and out, was fitted by the makers, best add on extra I have ever had saves an awful lot of backache, ran it past my insurers and they were happy with it and declared it of no consequence, but I had informed them so I was in the clear if any problems in the future. In respect of a steering box I would be cautious about fitting non standard items, it is a major component as far as insurers are concerned. Dave W
31 January 2021 at 13:34 #523912
HOWARDT
Participant
@howardt
Don’t know the replacement cost for the assembly but ballcrews and nuts can be reworked and fitted with oversize balls. Used to get ball screws done in the past and it was cheaper than new cost. Although don’t know wether the UK manufacturers we used still manufacture in the UK.
31 January 2021 at 13:35 #523913
Chris Evans 6
Participant
@chrisevans6
I ran Series Land Rovers for over 40 years. Don't even consider bronze balls they will be egg shaped in short order and stiffen the steering up big time. Fit a recon or good second hand box. Use studlock on the steering box mounting bolts, they are known to work loose. As Noel says pay attention to the shimming and preload of the swivels and be sure to check the relay is free and has oil in it. Set up properly my Land Rover's all steered and stopped well, I had a Series 2 plus a 2A and a series three. A brief encounter with a six cylinder was nice but to thirsty for me.
31 January 2021 at 13:52 #523919
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
"Somehow telling me about the great steering & following it up by how many wrecks there are does not equate to a high level of confidence"

I am not aware of any Prius being in a scrapyard because of handling or steering issues. Many such cars are in use, so statistically there will be a percentage that are involved in accidents with many causes which have nothing to do with any fault of the vehicle. Many are damaged in multi car pileup accidents on major highways during morning and evening commutes, as these cars are popular with commuters due to economy. The insurance business here being what it is results in a lot of cars that could be repaired , and would have been, years ago, getting "written off" and sent to scrapyards instead.
31 January 2021 at 15:44 #523946
Graham Meek
Participant
@grahammeek88282
I would suspect getting insurance on this vehicle would be hard, provided the insurers were aware of the modification. I also think the MOT tester would be a bit dubious about putting his signature on the MOT certificate if he knew the steering was not as manufactured.

Regards

Gray,
31 January 2021 at 17:36 #523977
old mart
Participant
@oldmart
It would be a difficult modification to fit a modern steering rack to a Land Rover, and a Prius one would not be strong enough. A rack from a larger 4 x 4 would be the minimum spec.
31 January 2021 at 17:54 #523986
stevetee
Participant
@stevetee
Just my two pennorth. There are hundreds of scrap Daihatsu Fourtraks with rusted out bodies. I was given a fifteen year old one as scrap, did the welding and ran it for ten years. The mechanical parts are fantastically reliable, If I was after a reliable steering box to fit to modify another vehicle , a Diahatsu one would be right up there at the top of my list. Powered steering too. It's not practical to fit a rack to a vehicle that has a steering box.
31 January 2021 at 18:35 #523998
not done it yet
Participant
@notdoneityet
I expect the prius has a rack and pinion with two steering arms, one to each side. Nothing at all like the steering on a LR. Slla..
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