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  • #442549
    Avon
    Participant
      @avon

      Hi, I'd be grateful for some advice on where to source imperial sized countersunk and socket head screws to replace some rather worn ones on my v old Smart & Brown Model M Mk 1. If I could confidently state what size they are I know that would help, but that too is proving difficult. The smallest is about 5/32 and probably 32 tpi.

      Grateful for your thoughts.

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      #29981
      Avon
      Participant
        @avon

        Renovating an old Smart & Brown Lathe

        #442551
        Michael Gilligan
        Participant
          @michaelgilligan61133

          My wild guess is that those will be #8 32 UNC

          What lengths do you need ?

          MichaelG.

          #442552
          noel shelley
          Participant
            @noelshelley55608

            5/32" X 32tpi is whitworth. or 3/16" bsf. But 32 tpi could be 6 or 8 unc or 10 unf .Precise dimentions are needed to pin this one down !

            #442556
            DMB
            Participant
              @dmb

              BSW & BSF may still be available from Blackgates/GLR/ maybe even Reeves or EKP. Try Google??

              #442557
              Michael Gilligan
              Participant
                @michaelgilligan61133

                Perhaps I misinterpreted about 5/32

                MichaelG.

                #442561
                Avon
                Participant
                  @avon

                  Gentlemen, thank you all for the prompt responses, I have been Googling for Britain with only very limited success. I think I'm going to have to very carefully measure the screws (there is more than one type) and post that info – cant do it at the moment as away from home.

                  Also, I want to get exactly the right threads as a number need holes retapped as they've not been loved and for some the thread has almost been obliterated – I'm hoping I can identify the thread from the relevant screw and work from there.

                  I'll have a look at the companies suggested and see what I can achieve.

                  Have a great Christmas.

                  #442565
                  Martin Connelly
                  Participant
                    @martinconnelly55370

                    A tpi thread gauge in your Christmas stocking would be useful. I have sourced screws like this on Ebay.

                    Martin C

                    #442567
                    Bazyle
                    Participant
                      @bazyle

                      Shame on you lot not immediately identifying 5/32 BSW as MECCANO normal screw thread – before they succumbed to metrication.

                      #442568
                      John C
                      Participant
                        @johnc47954

                        Try Spalding Fasteners http://www.spaldingfasteners.co.uk Wide range and great service.

                        No connection etc,

                        John

                        #442569
                        Avon
                        Participant
                          @avon

                          Martin, to my shame I do have a tpi thread gauge but the results seem inconclusive! i'm going to spend more time at the bench and carefully assess the tpi and my use of the guage (maybe the ones I have are a bit cheap!).

                          Bazyle, what a thought – I shall see if I can find any in the loft!!!

                          #442570
                          Avon
                          Participant
                            @avon

                            thanks John – they look to be a useful source. I'll give them a call when I'm more convinced of the sizes I need.

                            #442579
                            old mart
                            Participant
                              @oldmart

                              The threads I have come across when working on the museums Model A are BA and BSF. No unified or Whitworth have surfaced.

                              #442583
                              Michael Gilligan
                              Participant
                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                Posted by Bazyle on 20/12/2019 19:30:17:

                                Shame on you lot not immediately identifying 5/32 BSW as MECCANO normal screw thread – before they succumbed to metrication.

                                .

                                Why the shame ?

                                Are you suggesting that Smart & Brown used Meccano screws ?

                                … if so, what were the Meccano part numbers for the countersunk ones, please ?

                                MichaelG.

                                #442615
                                Hopper
                                Participant
                                  @hopper
                                  Posted by Avon on 20/12/2019 19:33:29:

                                  Martin, to my shame I do have a tpi thread gauge but the results seem inconclusive! i'm going to spend more time at the bench and carefully assess the tpi and my use of the guage (maybe the ones I have are a bit cheap!).

                                  Bazyle, what a thought – I shall see if I can find any in the loft!!!

                                  One of those magnifying glasses on a stand with a ring light might be in order for under the Christmas tree then! I couldn't get by without one in my workshop. Even the low cost ones work a treat.

                                  #442630
                                  Robin King
                                  Participant
                                    @robinking15611

                                    It'd be worth emailing Martin Kirsopp at Emkay Screw Supplies with an enquir He's very helpful with odd one off imperial screws etc for machine rebuilds. Web search will find his website and contact email address.

                                    #442646
                                    SillyOldDuffer
                                    Moderator
                                      @sillyoldduffer
                                      Posted by Bazyle on 20/12/2019 19:30:17:

                                      Shame on you lot not immediately identifying 5/32 BSW as MECCANO normal screw thread – before they succumbed to metrication.

                                      Hurrah for Meccano, but is that true? As far as I know Meccano parts are still linked to 1/2" hole spacing and the fasteners are still 5/32". Even though Meccano has been Made in France since 1981…

                                      Being a coarse thread 5/32" BSW is excellent for Meccano but it's unsatisfactory as a general purpose fastener. I know at least one serious Meccano modeller who prefers M4 because they're less likely to come undone due to vibration. For the same reason it's hard to imagine 5/32" BSW being used by Smart and Brown. My guess would be BSF or UNF depending on date, less likely BA.

                                      Dave

                                      #442667
                                      Michael Gilligan
                                      Participant
                                        @michaelgilligan61133

                                        Here’s an interesting aside, whilst we await Avon’s measurements and/or photos:

                                        **LINK**

                                        https://www.usmeccano.com/pdf/newmeccanoscrew.pdf

                                        MichaelG.

                                        #442727
                                        old mart
                                        Participant
                                          @oldmart

                                          You bunch of monkeys are more interested on your Meccano than my reply stating what threads are actually on Smart & Brown lathes.

                                          #442729
                                          Howard Lewis
                                          Participant
                                            @howardlewis46836

                                            The screws may be 5/32 diameter, and 32 tpi, but the Whit are 55 degree thread form, where the UNC 6-32 are 60 degrees, and therefore, not universally interchangeable.

                                            If the thread is BA, it is not 5/32 diameter.

                                            3 BA is 0.161" or 4BA is 0.1417" diameter, and neither is 32 tpi.

                                            I think that Thread Gauges are needed to act as referee.

                                            Howard.

                                            #442737
                                            Michael Gilligan
                                            Participant
                                              @michaelgilligan61133
                                              Posted by old mart on 21/12/2019 19:04:55:

                                              You bunch of monkeys are more interested on your Meccano than my reply stating what threads are actually on Smart & Brown lathes.

                                              .

                                              dont know … But you mentioned Model A

                                              The question is about “Smart & Brown Model M Mk 1”

                                              Do you have any evidence that they used the same threads on both ?

                                              MichaelG.

                                              #442738
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by Howard Lewis on 21/12/2019 19:40:27:

                                                The screws may be 5/32 diameter, and 32 tpi, but the Whit are 55 degree thread form, where the UNC 6-32 are 60 degrees, and therefore, not universally interchangeable.

                                                […]

                                                .

                                                The near approximation would be 8-32 not 6-32, Howard

                                                … as per my first posting.

                                                MichaelG.

                                                #442744
                                                Howard Lewis
                                                Participant
                                                  @howardlewis46836

                                                  Michael,

                                                  Don't rely on my memory!

                                                  Howard

                                                  #442747
                                                  Michael Gilligan
                                                  Participant
                                                    @michaelgilligan61133

                                                    No problem, Howard … it’s just there is enough confusion in this discussion already.

                                                    MichaelG.

                                                    .

                                                    Edit: Wikipedia has a handy listing

                                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Thread_Standard#Designation

                                                    … but the lathe screws will probably turn out to be Whitworth anyway !!

                                                    Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/12/2019 22:19:30

                                                    #443006
                                                    Avon
                                                    Participant
                                                      @avon

                                                      Gentlemen,

                                                      Delighted to have started such an enthusiastic debate smiley!

                                                      I have now had a closer look at two screws in particular (thanks Hopper for making me look through other old stuff from my father – a magnifier was found!). The results are as follows:

                                                      Baseplate retaining screws: 32tpi with a measured major diameter of 0.1825". The thread gauge actually reads 32G5/32, but 5/32 is too small!

                                                      The countersunk screws appear to be 4BA, with what appears to be almost exactly 38tpi and 0.134" max dia.

                                                      It is worth remembering that most of these screws/holes are worn so measured sizes are unlikely to match the 'as designed' specs.

                                                      Does this help you to help me?

                                                      Regards

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