Casting with yellow brass

Advert

Casting with yellow brass

Home Forums Materials Casting with yellow brass

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 37 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #441997
    Nigel Watts
    Participant
      @nigelwatts49512

      I am restoring a clock dating from around 1710 which is missing about a third of its original parts, some of which need to be cast.

      Clock cognoscenti are very particular about the colour of the brass used in restoration. Early clocks are invariably made of soft yellow brass which, for moving parts such as the wheels, needs work hardening.

      I made patterns for the castings and sent them off to a foundry to be cast using the lost wax process. After receiving them the foundry called me to say that they couldn't use yellow clock brass with lost wax because of problems with the fumes, but they would use an alternative and I wouldn't see any difference.

      When I received the castings they looked very yellow on the surface, but when filed they are far too pink and I can't use them.

      Where do I go now? I don't have the facilities or knowledge to do my own casting. Would commissioning a new set of castings using the sand casting technique be the way forward? If so I may need to modify some of the patterns to allow them to be extracted from the mould.

      Advert
      #29979
      Nigel Watts
      Participant
        @nigelwatts49512
        #441998
        Nigel Watts
        Participant
          @nigelwatts49512

          Here is a photo. The part-filed casting is on the left and a recently turned wheel blank made from cast yellow brass is on the right.

          Edited By Nigel Watts on 17/12/2019 07:52:18

          #442002
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            I wonder if the "yellow" that you see is an oxide layer formed as the metal cooled and that by filing that has been removed. It may return with time as the bare surface oxidises or may need to be encouraged by heating.

            Have you contacted the company that did the casting to see what they suggest?

            #442006
            Nigel Watts
            Participant
              @nigelwatts49512

              I emailed the supplier as soon as I realised to let them know I wasn't happy with the colour and asked whether there is another way of casting in which they could use the yellow clock brass (which they stock and sell on their website). I am waiting for their response.

              This is the first time I have commissioned a casting so my knowledge is limited.

              #442008
              Michael Gilligan
              Participant
                @michaelgilligan61133

                To the best of my limited knowledge, casting the yellow brass grades ‘in the open’ would contravene UK health & safety requirements … which is why the trade was exported to India frown

                The cost of doing the work ‘safely’ here is considered prohibitive.

                MichaelG.

                .

                https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/fd3.pdf

                Edited By Michael Gilligan on 17/12/2019 08:35:34

                #442011
                Pete Rimmer
                Participant
                  @peterimmer30576

                  Perhaps the foundry has an electroplating process that they use to get the proper yellow colour for clocks?

                  #442012
                  Martin Kyte
                  Participant
                    @martinkyte99762

                    Whilst I generally agree that consistant colour material does help regarding looks you may well find that once polished the differences are not as noticeable.

                    regards Martin

                    #442015
                    Nigel Watts
                    Participant
                      @nigelwatts49512
                      Posted by Pete Rimmer on 17/12/2019 08:50:23:

                      Perhaps the foundry has an electroplating process that they use to get the proper yellow colour for clocks?

                      I would need to send them back after machining and filing if this were the solution. The clock restoration purists wouldn't like it though. Being a valuable clock, I don't want to be too unorthodox in my use of materials.

                      #442018
                      Nigel Watts
                      Participant
                        @nigelwatts49512
                        Posted by Martin Kyte on 17/12/2019 08:51:47:

                        Whilst I generally agree that consistant colour material does help regarding looks you may well find that once polished the differences are not as noticeable.

                        regards Martin

                        You may be right but I am restoring a clock which could potentially survive a further few centuries. Differences in the composition of the alloys have a tendency to show up over time. I want to get it right, and the value and rarity of the clock means that I don't need to compromise if I don't have to.

                        #442078
                        Nigel Watts
                        Participant
                          @nigelwatts49512

                          I have contacted two more foundries and both say they can cast yellow brass, with one of them specifically saying he could do so using the lost wax process and describing what my founder had told me as "rubbish". I have still to hear from my original supplier. I am now more confused than ever!

                          #442080
                          Michael Gilligan
                          Participant
                            @michaelgilligan61133

                            Nigel,

                            I may be wrong, but please consider what I wrote in my previous post

                            It is my understanding that the viability of casting yellow brass [safely and legally] will depend upon what protective equipment the company concerned has available.

                            Your original foundry may not have made [excuse the pun] the necessary investment, but other specialists may have a suitable controlled environment.

                            i.e. both answers could be true.

                            MichaelG.

                            #442088
                            Nigel Watts
                            Participant
                              @nigelwatts49512

                              Good point. Thanks Michael.

                              #442092
                              Roderick Jenkins
                              Participant
                                @roderickjenkins93242

                                It's hard too see why yellow brass, which seems to be a straight copper zinc alloy, would create any hazard different from other brasses. The hazard with straight brasses is with the zinc that tends to boil off and any brass foundry will be equipped to deal with this. Other brass alloys can contain lead or arsenic so I suppose these could pose different hazards. Perhaps the original foundry misunderstood the alloy requirement.

                                Rod

                                #442098
                                Michael Gilligan
                                Participant
                                  @michaelgilligan61133

                                  Interesting document here: **LINK**

                                  http://www.hkramer.com/4KramerGoodFoundryPractices.pdf

                                  Page 8 of which covers ‘leaded yellow brass’

                                  MichaelG.

                                  #442149
                                  Neil Wyatt
                                  Moderator
                                    @neilwyatt

                                    I've done some backyard brass casting. Bear in mind that (a) I do it outside and (b) the quantities are very small.

                                    I learned quickly that the zinc can burn off but the bright flame and white fumes are obvious enough you should not get caught up in them if working outdoors if it catches.

                                    I found that a generous dollop of borax worked as a cover flux and (mostly) prevented the oxidation/evaporation of zinc. Another tip I received was to add a tiny (~0.5% I think) amount of aluminium. You don't want much or it will become a horrible aluminium bronze.

                                    Neil

                                    #442179
                                    Jeff Dayman
                                    Participant
                                      @jeffdayman43397

                                      I am not sure about foundries in UK or Europe but here in Ontario Canada several still are casting brass and bronze daily (and aluminum, and ferrous metal of course). I know of three foundries casting brass within 20 km of my town, I work with them in the day job. All do have good modern fume and particulate emissions control equipment, workers use proper PPE and respirators, but apart from that there is no magic and little hazard.

                                      Nigel, neither of the two brass parts you showed look like casting would be a must to make them – could they not be machined from brass stock and surface-finished to look like castings if needed?

                                      #442184
                                      Nigel Watts
                                      Participant
                                        @nigelwatts49512
                                        Posted by Jeff Dayman on 18/12/2019 06:39:38:

                                        Nigel, neither of the two brass parts you showed look like casting would be a must to make them – could they not be machined from brass stock and surface-finished to look like castings if needed?

                                        I made the part on the right in my previously posted picture (a clock wheel) from some cast yellow brass sheet sold specifically for antique clock restoration. I hammered it first to work harden before machining it using a wax chuck. I will be cutting the teeth using a fly cutter (the tooth shape on old clocks is pretty non-standard) before crossing it out. I included it its he pic as an example of the colour I need to match,

                                        The piece on the left is the backcock from which the pendulum will be suspended. I agree that it, and all the other castings (see below) could be made in a different way – either cutting from the solid or fabricating by silver soldering pieces of sheet, but casting is the more authentic method and since I may wish to do this again in future i am keen to find a reliable supplier whom I can trust. The castings in the pic look pretty rough but that is because I made a terrible job of casting the waxes from my patterns and not the fault of the foundry who, apart from using the wrong metal, did a good job.

                                         

                                        Edited By Nigel Watts on 18/12/2019 07:36:08

                                        #442189
                                        Phil P
                                        Participant
                                          @philp

                                          I get that you want the colour to be right for an old clock, but are you trying to pass off your newly made parts as being original to the clock ?

                                          I would have thought it does not really matter if the parts are a slightly different colour, because they are obviously from recent restoration work and certainly not original, and as such will be part of its documented history.

                                          If I were purchasing such a high value original item, I would not be too happy if i found out later someone had made most of it very recently.

                                          Bearing in mind your comments about the value and rarity, are you trying to make the clock more saleable, or make it run better for years to come ?

                                          Just curious.

                                          Phil

                                          #442192
                                          Nigel Watts
                                          Participant
                                            @nigelwatts49512
                                            Posted by Phil P on 18/12/2019 08:39:54:

                                            I get that you want the colour to be right for an old clock, but are you trying to pass off your newly made parts as being original to the clock ?

                                            I would have thought it does not really matter if the parts are a slightly different colour, because they are obviously from recent restoration work and certainly not original, and as such will be part of its documented history.

                                            If I were purchasing such a high value original item, I would not be too happy if i found out later someone had made most of it very recently.

                                            Bearing in mind your comments about the value and rarity, are you trying to make the clock more saleable, or make it run better for years to come ?

                                            Just curious.

                                            Phil

                                            Phil – what a good question, and one horologists can debate for hours on end!

                                            My clock – a London made spring-driven clock by a recognised maker dating from 1710 – started off life with not only an hour strike, but also a quarter repeat mechanism (on the pull of a string) and an alarm. These clocks would originally have been carried around the house by a servant and placed next to the bed at night. In more recent times, such clocks ceased to be carried about and just sat on tables or mantlepieces and the quarter repeats and alarms fell out of use. Furthermore, the original verge escapements, which were so robust they could survive the moving about, also tended to get replaced with more accurate but more delicate anchor escapements. My clock, which I bought at a public auction, is missing its quarter repeat and alarm and has an anchor conversion.

                                            Current feeling and practice amongst connoisseurs and restorers is that reconversion to verge and reinstatement of missing mechanisms is acceptable practice, as is trying to make the parts look authentic, including using the right colour brass (in fact not using the right brass is frowned upon). These clocks (mine included) don't just have ornate faces; the backplate and even some of the interior parts are ornately engraved, so its a bit like restoring a painting – all has to look right and blend in. I don't intend to sell the clock but in this internet age any knowlegable buyer would quickly be able to discover the auction catalogue listing and associated images of the clock in its unrestored state and deduce what had been done to it.

                                            One thing I am being scrupulous about is making sure everything is reversible. This means using only the existing holes in the plates. Where these are threaded (and there were no standards in 1710), I will be making bespoke screws to fit. The only holes I will need to drill are where some original holes were plugged during the conversion to anchor. The main dilemma is to what extent should any remaining unused holes (mainly those drilled to fit the anchor mechanism) be plugged.

                                            #442213
                                            Phil P
                                            Participant
                                              @philp

                                              Nigel

                                              What a good answer……..I was rushing to type the question before dashing off to work this morning, and it was only with hindsight that I thought you might take it the wrong way.

                                              I am into restoring early cylinder musical boxes and pre WW1 400 day clocks myself, and with the musical mechanisms there are many similarities to working on clocks, one such being the colour of the brass used for making parts, my musical boxes date from the mid 1800's up to Edwardian times, and the brass used was certainly more yellow than that available today.

                                              I try and squirell away any old brass materials that I come across to use for for this purpose.

                                              Likewise all my musical boxes and clocks are fully documented and photographed at every step of the restoration, I get great satisfaction from re-creating parts for something as old as these, but I am never going to kid anyone that they are totally original either.

                                              Good luck with you brass hunt.

                                              Phil

                                              #442250
                                              Nigel Watts
                                              Participant
                                                @nigelwatts49512

                                                Just had a reply from my caster:

                                                "I have never seen it come out pink before and i have been doing this a very long time. The only time you get a pink colour is silver solder flux will turn it pink but this comes off when the flux is cleaned off. A pink colour is the colour of Bronze and not the dark brown that people think of Bronze we do not cast much of that. Lost wax brass is just a less yellow colour we can sand cast the clockmakers yellow brass but as i said it gives off a lot of fumes so we cast that when we have enough orders to make up a load and do it in the evening when everyone has gone home the smoke that comes out is unbelievable. If you wanted to do that we would need patterns 4% larger and the casting would need a lot more work and may have some gas holes in it."

                                                #442251
                                                Phil P
                                                Participant
                                                  @philp

                                                  I once had a complete 400 day clock movement turn pink after leaving the parts for too long in an amonia based cleaning solution, apparently it reacts with the zinc somehow.

                                                  Phil

                                                  #442321
                                                  Nigel Watts
                                                  Participant
                                                    @nigelwatts49512

                                                    I have asked my caster to provide me with a specification of the brass he used and that of the yellow clock brass so that I can understand the differences and talk specifics rather than generalities. He seems to have failed to understand the point that there is a spectrum of colour for different brass alloys, with those higher in copper being pinker and those higher in zinc being yellower. Fastidious clock restorers only want the yellower brass.

                                                    #442322
                                                    Nigel Watts
                                                    Participant
                                                      @nigelwatts49512

                                                      This, incidentally, is the unrestored backplate of my clock, showing all the vacant holes where the missing mechanism would have been. Using pink brass on this would stick out like a sore thumb.

                                                      I am using a CAD programme to design the missing parts and ensure that they fit with the original plates.

                                                    Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 37 total)
                                                    • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Latest Replies

                                                    Home Forums Materials Topics

                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                                    View full reply list.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Newsletter Sign-up