Oddly Built Wall – Can anyone explain why?

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Oddly Built Wall – Can anyone explain why?

This topic has 27 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 12 March 2023 at 10:43 by Graham Meek.

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7 March 2023 at 13:35 #636533
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
On the way to visit mum I stopped in Corston to buy her some stamps, and took the opportunity to photograph this building which has intrigued me for years:

It's an old outhouse, built on the corner of a walled garden. The hatch and slit window are consistent with hauling bags from a roadside cart into the upper part of a stable.

The outhouse is built on top of an existing wall, that's been laid at an odd angle (red line), not horizontal (green line).

Peculiar in my limited experience, because brick and stone walls are normally built in strictly horizontal courses. If laid at an angle as in the photo, the weight tends to cause sloped courses to slide down the ramp. The construction is unstable, and I think it's dangerous to build on a sloped wall as has been done here. The outhouse on top is built conventionally with horizontal layers.

Though it doesn't show in the photo, the lower wall is a different type of stone to the building, which is the area's usual limestone, likely 19th Century or earlier.

Presumably to save money the outhouse builder took a risk by reusing an existing wall, even though it was tilted. And got away with it, because there's no sign of movement!

But why build a wall with off-horizontal courses in the first place? To me it implies a need to support something heavy resting on it at an angle, in the distant past. Anyone know the answer or able to offer an intelligent guess?

Dave
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7 March 2023 at 13:35 #29074
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
7 March 2023 at 14:38 #636542
Peter Cook 6
Participant
@petercook6
Possibly the original wall was built when the road surface sloped down like the top of the wall. If you could dig down below the pavement level, I suspect you would find the foundations of the wall sloped down below pavement level.

Subsequent road "improvements" have levelled the road surface.
7 March 2023 at 14:52 #636545
Ady1
Participant
@ady1
Old research photos might throw up an answer, local library?
7 March 2023 at 15:07 #636547
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/03/2023 13:35:37:

Peculiar in my limited experience, because brick and stone walls are normally built in strictly horizontal courses.

Not if it started out as a 3 ft high boundary wall or similar and was subsequently used for the base of the existing building. Most dry stone walls for example follow the slope of the ground and are not stepped or laid in horizontal courses
7 March 2023 at 15:11 #636548
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 07/03/2023 13:35:37:

[…]

But why build a wall with off-horizontal courses in the first place?

.

Mundane answer from me :

Because it was originally built as a boundary wall, and followed the terrain.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ Post crossed with Jason’s

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/03/2023 15:13:18
7 March 2023 at 15:15 #636549
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Good example of the old wall following the natural contours just up the road on google maps
7 March 2023 at 15:18 #636550
Brian Wood
Participant
@brianwood45127
I have to take issue with you here Jason.

In Yorkshire. dry stone walls are built horizontally, in steps if need be on sloping ground, for the very reasons of stability you mention. The use of the wall doesn't alter whether or not that is the case

Regards Brian
7 March 2023 at 15:23 #636551
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
What about this and loads more images on a google search of Drystone wall Yorkshire

Edited By JasonB on 07/03/2023 15:24:08
7 March 2023 at 15:33 #636553
gary
Participant
@gary44937
nothing wrong with building on a slope. done very often when needed.
7 March 2023 at 16:15 #636556
Brian Wood
Participant
@brianwood45127
Field walls with random stone are one thing, ornamental walls are usually built with coursed stone
7 March 2023 at 16:17 #636557
JA
Participant
@ja
Dave

Pay a visit to the Withshire County Archives at Chippenham. They should be able to tell you all about the building.

It seems to me that we are suffering from cabin fever having been driven out of our workshops by the cold. It should be warmer at the weekend.

JA
7 March 2023 at 16:40 #636562
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Different types of wall only one with horizontal coursing the double stack, as me and Michael said it was possibly a (field) boundary in another life

Admittedly the wall in question has fairly regular coursing which would make slipping more likely, usually you would have more raddom stone sizes so there are no long sloping joint lines to slip
7 March 2023 at 18:28 #636577
File Handle
Participant
@filehandle
I have seen brick walls built following the slope of the ground rather than horizontaly, especially in farm buildings.One I remember only looked odd after it was pierced with a vertical doorway, or rather the doorway looked odd.

.
7 March 2023 at 19:02 #636580
Grindstone Cowboy
Participant
@grindstonecowboy
Works for the Chinese!

Rob
7 March 2023 at 19:12 #636584
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
I like the boundary wall suggestion. This clip from the 1909 25" Ordnance Survey map shows the road slopes down to cross a stream.

The road is the A39, built as a Turnpike in 1707 connecting Bath to Wells, and re-engineered by McAdam sometime before he died in 1832. My guess is the original road dipped down steeply to ford the stream, but was raised high over a causeway that removed the awkward dip. In which case the sloping wall could be earlier than 1832, and it's right for the boundary of the Brookside property, sat in a 0.852 acre garden.

Not sure going to Chippenham will help, because Corston was in Somerset, not Wiltshire. Since then it's been in Avon, and is now ruled by the wonderfully named Banes, straight out of Lord of the Rings. I guess the records are in Taunton. Much of the village is owned by the Duchy of Cornwall. The current Duke is Prince William, heir to the throne, but he wasn't there to ask when I dropped in.

Dave
7 March 2023 at 20:52 #636597
ChrisLH
Participant
@chrislh
Looks like there are two Corstons. One in Wilts on the A429 near Malmesbury and SOD's one in Somerset.
7 March 2023 at 21:12 #636599
Martin Kyte
Participant
@martinkyte99762
I think the boundary wall suggestion is probably the correct explanation. However if you take a look at some of the canal roving bridges especially ones that cross at an angle you will see many examples of brickwork anything but horizontal. On the skew bridges the brickwork forming the arch starts off on the slope and then straightens out to the crown and ends up with the opposite slope on the other side. Admittedly the courses are perpendicular to the direction of thrust. They really are gems of bricklaying art.

regards Martin
7 March 2023 at 22:16 #636608
Martin Kyte
Participant
@martinkyte99762
Oh and you should see some of the older houses out in the fen. They started off upright but then the fen shrank and the whole building ends up tilted.

regards Martin
8 March 2023 at 08:09 #636639
File Handle
Participant
@filehandle
Isn't one explanation the whoever built the wall might not have had a spirit level, common now, but less likely to be so in the past. Built by eye a wall following the ground level looks better!
8 March 2023 at 09:02 #636645
Anthony Kendall
Participant
@anthonykendall53479
I think we might have to get Corston CID in to get the real answer?
8 March 2023 at 09:16 #636648
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Endless hours of amusement available here, Dave: **LINK**

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16.3&lat=51.55687&lon=-2.11253&layers=178&right=LIDAR_DSM_1m

More map options than you could shake the proverbial stick at !!

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ parts of the garden wall, a little higher-up the hill, are also laid to the slope of the hill.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2023 09:36:06
8 March 2023 at 10:08 #636659
SillyOldDuffer
Moderator
@sillyoldduffer
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2023 09:16:46:

Endless hours of amusement available here, Dave: **LINK**

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16.3&lat=51.55687&lon=-2.11253&layers=178&right=LIDAR_DSM_1m

More map options than you could shake the proverbial stick at !!

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ parts of the garden wall, a little higher-up the hill, are also laid to the slope of the hill.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/03/2023 09:36:06

Just shows how unreliable personal experience is. Stone walls are common round here, and I only noticed this one was different. Next time I go walkies I'll look closely at the hilly boundary walls. Pretty sure I'll find some that follow the slope!

Very educational this forum!

Dave
8 March 2023 at 11:53 #636683
Graham Meek
Participant
@grahammeek88282
Having done a lot of stone walling in my youth, (Great Grandfather was a Stone Mason), most Forest of Dean stone walls were laid horizontal.

I do wonder if the wall in the opening Photograph was at one time a retaining wall for a Ramp from the roadside to higher ground. If it was then this ramp would be a substantial foundation for the building. Laying the courses parallel to the ramp surface would leave a nice clean edge at ramp level and not stepped. Which is what would happen if the wall had been laid horizontally.

Regards

Gray,
8 March 2023 at 13:10 #636697
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
You don't actually need a stepped top edge to the wall if laid with horizontal courses, quite often the top coarse is feathered out and then the caping or coping laid to the slope
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