Wood Treatment

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Wood Treatment

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  • #225491
    Brian H
    Participant
      @brianh50089

      I'm building a 1 1/2 scale Burrell-Boydell (which is in an album on the Model Engineer website) that has wooden parts in contact with the road/grass/field and I wonder how they would have been finished.
      I have assumed that they would have been made from oak so have chosen a fine grained maple. I'm sure that the wood would have been covered in pitch or tar as a preservative but I thought that a black stain would be acceptable for modelling purposes but would be interested in others opinions.

      I have also posted this on the Traction Talk site.

      Edited By Brian Hutchings on 15/02/2016 15:34:50

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      #2833
      Brian H
      Participant
        @brianh50089

        Preservation of wooden components in contact with ground

        #225494
        pgk pgk
        Participant
          @pgkpgk17461

          As far as i'm aware the best timber to avoid rot in the ground (as in fence posts) is sweet chestnut. Modern tanalising is nowhere as good as real creosote. farmers around here used to stick the posts in barrels of creosote and pitch. Now frowned upon.

          #225496
          Martin Kyte
          Participant
            @martinkyte99762

            I imagine they would have been considered to be disposable. I would have thought that abrasion would have destroyed the timber faster than any rot. Oak is quite high in acids so resists decay fairly well. I will ask my friend tonight he would know better than me.

            regards Martin

            #225502
            JasonB
            Moderator
              @jasonb

              Short of using Ebony or a dark piece of African Blackwood your stain option is really the only way to get a tarred look though laminating dyed veneer could be a possibility.

              Maple being dense does not take a stain too well like beech so I would probably go for something like Leberon Pallet dye rather than a spirit based stain as it has a bit more pigment in it. You may find the dye wears off with use as its not going to soak in very far but I don't expect you to be doing too many laps of teh rally field with the Boydell. Something darker to start with like American Black Walnut would not show the wear as much as the lighter coloured maple would.

              J

              #225503
              densleigh
              Participant
                @densleigh

                Lignum Vitae would be good – you can get it from specialist timber importers or a set of old Lawn bowls.

                Be aware it is very very hard and difficult to cut, sinks in water, but is beautiful wood.

                It is green when first cut

                #225504
                Jon Gibbs
                Participant
                  @jongibbs59756

                  Oak and chestnut heartwoods are almost identical in appearance (save the oak medullary rays) and tannin content leading to similar durability although chestnut shrinks and expands slightly less.

                  …but oak has superior properties in terms of strength, flexibility etc and is heavier. So, I'd be very surprised if these shoes weren't made of oak heartwood. Sapwood rots very easily and quickly.

                  I'd also be surprised if there'd be much benefit in additional preservative as it would wear off quickly at least on the underside.

                  Seasoned oak heartwood will last for years untreated provided it's either always wet or always dry, it's the repeated wet/dry cycle that leads to deterioration. The problem with preservative coatings like paint/tar etc is that they can often let in and then hold moisture that would otherwise run off and dry quickly and that can encourage rot.

                  I'd stick to the natural maple or lightly colour with perhaps a light oak stain. although the end grain will tend to go "over" unless you're careful.

                  HTH

                  Jon

                  Edited By Jon Gibbs on 15/02/2016 16:33:45

                  Edited By Jon Gibbs on 15/02/2016 16:42:55

                  #225507
                  Gordon W
                  Participant
                    @gordonw

                    You could try hacking up an offcut of old creosoted railway sleeper, or telephone pole. Looks the right colour and won't rot.

                    #225521
                    Michael Gilligan
                    Participant
                      @michaelgilligan61133

                      Brian,

                      I have no idea if it was full-size practice, but you might consider using Hornbeam.

                      This was commonly used for the inserted teeth in composite [with cast iron] gear-wheels in Windmills and Watermills … It is very tough.

                      MichaelG.

                      .

                      Flitwick

                      Edited By Michael Gilligan on 15/02/2016 18:57:34

                      #225522
                      Vic
                      Participant
                        @vic

                        Elm used to used a lot years ago in wet conditions.

                        #225530
                        Speedy Builder5
                        Participant
                          @speedybuilder5

                          Ash is a nice chewey sort of wood which is as hard as oak etc.

                          #225535
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb

                            Ash looks so out of scale due to its wide grain pattern and in real life its a perishable hardwood.

                            On a model its trying to get the "look" of what was originally used not what might have been used which is what I thought Brian was asking hence his choice of maple as at 1/8th scale its more like oak. Add to that that the tanic acid in the original oak will react with the iron of the "wheel" and soon take on a grey-black colour by itself

                             

                            Edited By JasonB on 15/02/2016 20:01:07

                            #225540
                            Ian Welford
                            Participant
                              @ianwelford58739

                              Elm would get my vote. They made water pipes form it and it lasts well. Nice fine grain so would look good too.

                              Ian

                              #225571
                              john carruthers
                              Participant
                                @johncarruthers46255

                                My old mate Mo was set up to make elm well pipes, he reckoned they would outlast him, he was right.
                                'Real' creosote from the gas works was freely available round here, job to find it now.

                                #225583
                                Martin Kyte
                                Participant
                                  @martinkyte99762

                                  Had a word with my mate Barrie last night and he agrees with me that on the original engine the wood would have been untreated and the wooden pads regarded as sacrificial items. Although the intention of using a 'track laying' wheel would have been to handle soft ground some abrasive action would always occur which would in consequence eventually require the replacement of the pads. Any surface treatment would soon be worn away and abrasion and wear would 'do for' the pads faster than any deterioration due to rot.

                                  So if you want an authentic look I would agree with your close grained species and possibly leave the wood unfinished. If you really want to colour it aim for natural oak and maybe give it a wipe over with danish oil which would seal the surface an give a matt finish.

                                  regards Martin

                                  PS Barries family ran traction engines in Norfolk as threshing contractors.

                                  #225589
                                  MW
                                  Participant
                                    @mw27036

                                    "'Real' creosote from the gas works was freely available round here, job to find it now."

                                    thats fantastic stuff, and they banned it just because a few people wanted to spray it out of a gun, virtually any paint is harmful to inhale.

                                    Besides that, theres bits of wood in my garden log store that have been boiled/treated with that 50 years ago and havent started to rot yet.

                                    Michael W

                                    Edited By Michael Walters on 16/02/2016 09:28:37

                                    #225591
                                    Jon Gibbs
                                    Participant
                                      @jongibbs59756

                                      Sorry but I've heard enough about elm

                                      Elm's a traditional material for coffins and pipes because they stay wet. They even found Roman elm pipes in York during archaeology digs. Under those conditions it will not rot

                                      …but these pads are above ground and will be alternately wet and then dry. Under those conditions elm is no more durable than anything else. Added to that, it is actually quite soft and so would wear away in this application in no time IMHO.

                                      Where elm also gets used is in the hubs of cartwheels and anywhere else where split resistance is a prized property but I can't see that being useful in this application.

                                      For modelling purposes it'd be hopeless too IMHO because the figure is too bold and big.

                                      I agree that the contact with cast/wrought iron would create black staining in oak but that tends to be pretty localized IMHO depending how old the pads are supposed to be on the vehicle.

                                      HTH

                                      Jon

                                      #225593
                                      Brian H
                                      Participant
                                        @brianh50089

                                        I'm grateful to all who replied and for the suggestions offered.

                                        There were too many to answer individually so I have written a reply that incorporates the points brought up;

                                        Maple was chosen on the advice of a cabinet maker and restorer named David Hazel who has a workshop in Derbyshire and made a case for a an English Regulator clock to the design of John Wilding and made an excellent job of it.

                                        David found a piece of well seasoned maple and cut the 12 feet to thickness, length and width for me to finish the stepped profile. As I already have the feet cut to shape, I won't be changing to a different wood although the idea of using creosoted offcuts was appealing due to the smell.

                                        I have decided to use a stain to tone down the very light colour of the maple and to hint at preserved wood.

                                        Wear of the wood was dealt with on the real engine by plates of steel or iron bolted on. These can be seen on a picture of the 1861 Exhibition engine outside Burrells' works.

                                        The model will not be used on rally fields due to its small size and will probably be used for a few demonstration runs.

                                        #225602
                                        Jon Gibbs
                                        Participant
                                          @jongibbs59756
                                          Posted by Michael Walters on 16/02/2016 09:26:20:

                                          and they banned it just because a few people wanted to spray it out of a gun, virtually any paint is harmful to inhale.

                                          Edited By Michael Walters on 16/02/2016 09:28:37

                                          No, they banned it because it is a pretty nasty carcinogen and can be imbibed even through touch. It is harmful to the environment especially if it enters the water table and since it never really dries completely the effect lasts long after application – a particular problem with telegraph poles and fence posts. The funny thing is it's still used for telegraph poles though I think basically because it's the best preservative and big business can ignore such bans in practice.

                                          I agree that nothing's quite as good as creosote for preserving wood but timber is actually cheap enough and is sustainable after all.

                                          Jon

                                          #225784
                                          Michael Gilligan
                                          Participant
                                            @michaelgilligan61133

                                            Brian,

                                            Now that the suggestions have subsided; I hope you won't mind me adding this **LINK** to some contemporary news reports.

                                            You are presumably familiar with the history; but, for the uninitiated [me] it helps bring this wondrous beast to life.

                                            MichaelG.

                                            #225790
                                            Stovepipe
                                            Participant
                                              @stovepipe

                                              Creosote is also excellent for persuading squirrels not to visit your loft. They hop it like a commuter running for the last train.

                                              Dennis

                                              #225798
                                              JasonB
                                              Moderator
                                                @jasonb

                                                Michael (or anyone else for that matter) the guy who's post you link to has a very full photobucket account with a mass of old engine and machine photos if you have a spare afternoon its worth looking through.

                                                J

                                                #225800
                                                MW
                                                Participant
                                                  @mw27036

                                                  I wonder if the ban is simply partial because if the creosote is used with proper precaution it isnt necessarily any more dangerous than alot of other high VOC preservatives, i mean, they can link flux fumes to cancer and even simply cooked food.

                                                  Michael W

                                                  #225806
                                                  Brian H
                                                  Participant
                                                    @brianh50089

                                                    Many thanks for the link Michael which seems to be about a different journey, but along the same roads, as the one I am familiar with and involved a team of horses and the use of Burrells 1861 exhibition engine. My webpage is down at the moment but I'll send you the details.

                                                    Regards, Brian

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