Traction engine tyres

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Traction engine tyres

This topic has 29 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 5 April 2017 at 08:23 by John Lintorn.

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28 September 2010 at 18:44 #2698
Vapeur89
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@vapeur89
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28 September 2010 at 18:44 #56215
Vapeur89
Participant
@vapeur89
Hi,

a friend of mine is building a 2” Allchin. (using a conversion factor of 32mm for 1”) . You can see his work in progress on his site

< http://mbc-usinages.e-monsite.com/ >.

at the moment he is looking for methods to produce rubber tyres for the traction engine.

Has anyone gained skills in that field or would know any useful link on the subject?

Patrick
28 September 2010 at 19:10 #56216
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
You can buy suitable section rubber that can be glued to the rims or a steel band fitted over the strakes. Looks like this on a 2″ Fowler

Best source is Terry at Double B Designs who also sells castings for the Mclaren engines and Foster, He advertises in Old Glory but does not have a web site. If you e-mail him the diameter and width of the rims he will advise on what size rubber will suit.

e-mail double-b-design@btopenworld.com

He is also a regular poster on Traction Talk Forum and goes by the name “injectorman” if you search the model engine section of the site you will get plenty of info on tyres.

Best adhesive is Isoflex by Thompsons and use their primer, sand the inside of the rubber to remove mould release agent and make them smaller than the rim so they stretch over it.

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 28/09/2010 19:13:32
28 September 2010 at 19:27 #56217
Vapeur89
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@vapeur89
Thank’s Jason. I’ll forward that to my friend . I will also register to TTF.

Patrick
8 November 2010 at 20:46 #58452
Paul Clapham
Participant
@paulclapham12886
Hi,

You could try “v” belts, if you turn them inside out then glue them onto the rims.

Try washing machine belt for the fronts and car dynamo/alternator belts for the rear.

You may have to mess around a bit to find somthing that is the right scale.

Paul.
9 November 2010 at 17:58 #58506
Vapeur89
Participant
@vapeur89
hi Paul.

I think it’s a clever idea well worth to try out. I’ll forward it to my friend.

Patrick
6 March 2011 at 18:33 #65107
the artfull-codger
Participant
@theartfull-codger
I used conveyor belting for my 4″ foster, for the rear I cut “rubber strakes” to fit in between the steel strakes & made them a good fit & glued them on,mabye not as good as “proper” tyres but they retain the look of the original straked wheels & the difference driving on the road is great, the front ones I glued a band of thinner conveyor belting on & of course the main advantage is they didn’t cost much!!! [offcuts from a conveyor belt company]
6 March 2011 at 19:23 #65109
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
As this thread has been opened up again my earlier post is now out of date. Terry of Double B has now retired (no pun intended) and the rubber tyre sections are now being sold by Alan at MJ Engineering.

There is a good article about fitting the tyres on his site

http://www.mjeng.co.uk/mjrubbertyres.html

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 06/03/2011 19:23:39
6 March 2011 at 21:10 #65113
mgj
Participant
@mgj
LSM do proper vulcanised rubber tyres, and I believe so do Reliance rubber. At a price of course, but that is the route I am going with a 4″ engine.

I have ben told that the glued on ones have a habit of coming off after a bit, requiring re-gluing. Depending on the glue I suppose
7 March 2011 at 18:29 #65153
the artfull-codger
Participant
@theartfull-codger
I suppose they could come off, mine have been on for 2 seasons now without trouble, one of the reasons I fitted them, was £10 + £10 for the adhesive!!!!!!
7 March 2011 at 18:42 #65155
mgj
Participant
@mgj
I’m told its the torque of the larger engines. Superglue is vulnerable to water of course, but possibly one of the roofing type glues would be pretty good.

I don’t have any firm knowledge personally , though the lad at the club knew a lot about it, and mentioned some of the sources on this thread.

I know the vulcanised ones look very good, but the tyre has to be attached before painting – so I shall get LSM to roll the 1/4 thick rings and weld in the tees, and send all off to the vulcanisers. The rest is down to me, but the rings are bigger than my lathe will swing, and I can’t roll 1/4 plate either!.
7 March 2011 at 19:09 #65159
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
You should also spoke up the wheel as it then allows the vulcanisers to finish the tyres to profile, if not its a lot of dust using a sanding disc in an angle grinder and some form of jig to rotate the wheel. Some people just bolt the spokes in and leave the riviting until after the tyres. Have a look at Julia’s GMT build on TT, she goes into quite a bit of detail about the vulcanising.

The couple of engines that I have seen which used belting looked a bit fluffy as the reinforcing fibres wore through to the surface.

J
7 March 2011 at 19:58 #65166
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
It’s a pity you gents aren’t building North American traction engines. The real ones built around 1880-1930 had no rubber tires, steel only, so no rubber for modelers now to worry about. Very few paved roads existed in the time they were used in rural NA.

No hornplates on NA engines either, and many engines had the engine built on a separate engine frame, so crank to cylinder centre, and general alignment, was not affected by boiler heat and did not strain the boiler.

Oh well. Hope your tire/tyre fastening goes OK.

JD
7 March 2011 at 20:08 #65167
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Its only the road locos that should really have tyres, my Aggricultural will be run onsteel strakes though a lot of makers fit tyres as it gives a more comfortable ride.

Still at least we have proper spokes not those bicycle ones the US engines have And I have seen a few US models with rubber cleats and even the full size with rubbers

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 07/03/2011 20:33:38
7 March 2011 at 22:30 #65170
mgj
Participant
@mgj
I’m sure the US engines were very sound and all, but I have yet to see one that looked as it it should be modelled.

Best kept in pictures, preferably in a closed book?

GMT is a GMT. I understand that – whats TT?

This is another (4″) Little Samson. The 3″ was such a success. It pulls me around the garden and over the orchard in bottom gear, and goes well in top on the gravel of Yeovil Junc station – steam days – but I would like to be able to haul passengers. Darned good engine for beginners- not too big, very cheap to build and goes nicely. Get it and all the gear for a days running in the back of a Focus.The new drawings are excellent too.

Edited By mgj on 07/03/2011 22:31:23
7 March 2011 at 23:09 #65172
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
Hi Jason,

The bike spokes may not be to your taste, but they actually worked OK, as they were between 5/8″ and 1″ diameter and there were lots of them. There were quite a few engines made with flat spokes too though, Reeves, Sawyer Massey and George White to name a few. The Geo White basket style flat spoke wheel were known as one of the toughest.

I agree today you can see many steam traction engines in USA and Canada with rubber fitted, but I assure you this was not how they were offered originally. people fit the rubber today if they are moving their engines on public paved roads to avoid damaging the pavement. Strips of chevron style tread used pneumatic tires are often bolted on the steel wheel drums, others fit rubber lugs in place of the iron grouters fitted originally.

As to other comments/opinions about appearances of one engine vs another, books closed or open: for me it falls in the category of things that polite people really ought not to comment on. Other things in this category are the appearance of family members, pets, cars, religion etc. I don’t offer comment on those items myself.

I have rarely seen a steam engine from anywhere in the world I didn’t like the appearance of, or some aspect of it. However, if some must make comments I guess we have to indulge them.

JD
8 March 2011 at 07:40 #65176
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
I’d open any book to look at the engines, I suppose its just what you are used to and what style you like. MGJ I’m not keen on the LS cast wheels either, what are you using on yours?

Like in the states most of our engines would have started life with steel strakes and have either been fitted with rubbers as the roads improved or when in preservation for an easier ride and less damage to the road surface.

TT is TractionTalk Forum they have a very good model section. Edward of Little Samson posts there, so does Dave (Dream comes true author) and Julia Olds is documenting here build of a 6″ Gold Medal Tractor on there in great detail.

J
8 March 2011 at 18:02 #65206
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Jason – the cast wheels…well they do make life very easy. But I agree, there are better looking items. As you know that was my first TE – well first model actually, and it suited. Mind you, several people having seen them like the look and say how unusual!

Howver, I think I’d recommend a novice down that route too. You can always change to spoked wheels later, since he does do the hubs, and the drawings come in the pack. I gather most use cast, but in reality very few LSs were built with cast wheels.

This time its spokes. I like the look, I fancy a change, I want to have a go at lining, and apart from getting the rings rolled, all will fit on the lathe.

The only awkward things on the 4″ will be the final drive gear and 2nd motion shaft high gear. I have to swing 13.5″ on a dividing head. So I shall get a slab of cast iron (seems to be the cheapest option) and make a raising block. Edward does do a gear cutting service, but I don’t like subbing out unless I really really have to. – and gear cutting is a pleasant and peaceful occupation. The bevel gears in the diff/compensating centre you can buy as cast, and I just ran the 3″ ones in on a dummy axle with valve grinding paste, before cleaning of. So thats a cheap and easy diff! One could use a smaller cutter and do parallel depth bevels, but the cast option is so easy.

Very pleased with the 3″ – a lot of fun, and goes nicely. Above all 2 people can get it into the back of an estate car without hassle! The 4″ at about 500lbs will need a trailer and a scissors lift!

Edited By mgj on 08/03/2011 18:05:44
8 March 2011 at 18:42 #65208
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
So it will be wood blocks on the 6″ when you do that

J
8 March 2011 at 19:19 #65211
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Not that much of a change!!!!! Nor am I a carpenter. But it would get round the tyres problem. And 3″ is a very good size – what with all the handling business. The LS as you know was quite a small engine, so a 4″ LS would probalby equate to a biggish 3″ version of an agricultural engine. I think Anyway, it would sit nicely between the 3″ engines and a real 4″ one like the Fosters of this world, which suits me, and my machinery.

Most grateful for the TT link. I have registered – very useful.

Wood block wheels for the OP. They do look very handsome and cheap too. Does anyne know how they last in use?

Edited By mgj on 08/03/2011 19:20:12
8 March 2011 at 19:55 #65214
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Posted by mgj on 08/03/2011 19:19:15:

Wood block wheels for the OP. They do look very handsome and cheap too. Does anyne know how they last in use?

Have a look on TT for the recent post about Showmans Engine “Despatch” plenty of talk about Boulton wheels and other woodblock tyres.

Intersetingly it says a full size on rubbers could pull 3 times as much as the same engine on steel strakes when on made up roads due to better tractive effort.

J
8 March 2011 at 21:04 #65216
mgj
Participant
@mgj
Thats because the rubbers will act like racing slicks!!

Your tractive effort is the torque/radius (thrust at the point of contact) However what the contact patch will sustain is coefficient of friction(mu) x weight (m x g) So if applied thrust exceeds stiction the wheel will slip.

So with steel strakes the wheels will probably slip (slip stall) long before max torque can be applied because mu is low – on a metalled surface.

With rubber you can get an interesting effect dependent on the hardness of the rubber and the load. mu can be more than 1 which is theoretically impossible. In fact what happens is that the rubber deforms and interlocks with the surface, and so you can get very high coefficients of friction, and could well permit torque stall in some cases.

Edited By mgj on 08/03/2011 21:05:37
4 April 2017 at 13:31 #292057
John Lintorn
Participant
@johnlintorn87585
Is there anywhere to procure just square/rectangle rubber sock? The price traction engine suppliers charge for a set of rubbers is in my mind outrageous!
4 April 2017 at 18:09 #292090
Martin Connelly
Participant
@martinconnelly55370
You could buy rubber sheet of suitable thickness and cut slices off it. Don't know what you think is expensive.

Martin C.
4 April 2017 at 21:25 #292113
Hacksaw
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@hacksaw
**LINK** Good company (apart from the unheplful jobsworth on the counter when you go in !)

Tunbridge Wells Kent
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