20 cc Four Stroke True Diesel

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20 cc Four Stroke True Diesel

Home Forums I/C Engines 20 cc Four Stroke True Diesel

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
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  • #619243
    Roger B
    Participant
      @rogerb61624

      I have mentioned my diesel experiments a few times in the McDonald Tractor thread. As I have now reached the first milestone I will write it up separately.

      The work started a few years ago to try and build a 20cc horizontal two stroke diesel for a ‘Field Marshal’ type tractor. After a lot of experiments with the fuel injection system it sort of worked but I felt that it was running on the fuel that blew by the piston rather than the atomised injected fuel.

      To resolve this I decided to convert it to a four stroke. The resultant is a bit of a compromise as the crankcase and lubrication is designed for a two stroke. The compression pressure is around 30 bar and the injection pressure is around 90 bar (calculated from the force on the test pump plunger) with a 2mm bore helix controlled pump and poppet style injector. After some experiments with the injection timing it runs and responds to the position of the fuel rack but also blows out quite a lot of unburnt fuel so I think I need to further improve the atomisation.

      20221029_190636.jpg

      20221029_190655.jpg

      20220321_190504.jpg

      20220321_191238.jpg

      This video is of a warm start, gradually moving the rack towards open until it fires. It is running on pump diesel without additives.

      **LINK**

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      #2639
      Roger B
      Participant
        @rogerb61624
        #619248
        Hopper
        Participant
          @hopper

          Wow that is some awesome work. Looks good.

          Is there a distinction between a "true" diesel and other diesels?

          #619249
          Graham Meek
          Participant
            @grahammeek88282

            Hi Roger,

            I am glad to hear you have finally succeeded in the illusive true miniature diesel. I have been following your posts on the other Forum throughout. I regret to say my efforts have fallen by the wayside for a number of years.

            You deserve praise for your efforts, and I do hope you will put your work into print.

            Regards

            Gray,

            #619272
            DiogenesII
            Participant
              @diogenesii

              No light undertaking, and a great result – nice work, I too am in awe..

              #619274
              Ady1
              Participant
                @ady1

                Are you using any additives to help things along? (edit no he's not)

                Even the aircraft industry needs a specific type of fuel, avgas I believe

                Good luck with your efforts, it will be intruiging to see how your power outputs progress

                Edited By Ady1 on 31/10/2022 17:28:32

                #619277
                John Haine
                Participant
                  @johnhaine32865

                  Nice!

                  Presumably the aeromodelling diesels I used to use were "other" in that while they used compression ignition they breathed fuel-air mixture through a carburettor?

                  #619278
                  Ady1
                  Participant
                    @ady1
                    Posted by Hopper on 31/10/2022 10:53:48:

                    Wow that is some awesome work. Looks good.

                    Is there a distinction between a "true" diesel and other diesels?

                    Other small model diesels use ether based fuels which ignite very easily, they use the diesel principle but with far more volatile fuel and lower compression

                    The Germans tried to make aero diesels work in the 30s 40s

                    You can tank up on a gallon of diesel almost anywhere on the planet which would make a successful small version very desireable, even today

                    Edited By Ady1 on 31/10/2022 17:39:53

                    #619299
                    John Olsen
                    Participant
                      @johnolsen79199

                      A rue Diesel uses fuel injection and compression ignition. This means that the power can be controlled by varying the amount of fuel injected, and the timing is controlled by the time of injection. With the simpler compression ignition model engines, the timing is controlled by varying the compression, and there isn't much control over the power level since throttling the engine would reduce the effective compression ratio. The exhaust can be throttled to some degree.

                      The German Diesel aero engines were fairly successful. The engine is heavier, but uses less fuel, which can be a net gain for longer ranges.

                      At the moment, in this country, (NZ) Diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol, even though the petrol includes road user taxes and the Diesel does not. (Diesel users must pay a separate mileage based charge.) Luckily my Nissan Patrol runs on LPG, which is about half the price of petrol.

                      John

                      #619321
                      Clive Brown 1
                      Participant
                        @clivebrown1

                        A long while ago, I heard say that a "true" diesel was one using air blast injection. This was the patent originally granted to Diesel himself. This method was later made obsolete by the development of solid injection equipment.

                        Probably a somewhat archaic distinction these days.

                        #619328
                        Mark Rand
                        Participant
                          @markrand96270

                          <PEDANT MODE>
                          A Diesel cycle engine uses constant pressure combustion.
                          An Otto cycle engine uses constant volume combustion.
                          </PEDANT MODE>

                          Modern practical engines use a combination of both.

                          #619373
                          Andy Stopford
                          Participant
                            @andystopford50521

                            It wasn't just Germany who tried diesel aero-engines; the Americans, amongst others, also gave it a go, e.g.

                            http://www.enginehistory.org/Piston/Diesels/Ch3.pdf

                            Most of the contemporary reviews of these machines seem to have been very favourable and its not that clear why they never found wider favour, except perhaps that the 2nd World War came along with much emphasis on the highest possible performance, and subsequently gas turbines clearly became the way to go for all but the smallest engines.

                            Napiers though didn't let this get in the way of trying to develop a truly wacky diesel based power plant:

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Nomad

                            Eric "Winkle" Brown flew one of the Junkers-engined aircraft (I forget which one) and reported, slightly surprisingly, that it was smoother and quieter than a comparable petrol engine. He didn't care for the smell of the exhaust though.

                            #####################

                            re. the subject of this thread – that's a fantastic piece of work Roger, was there any special trick to making the pump plunger?

                            #619432
                            Roger B
                            Participant
                              @rogerb61624

                              I use the term ‘True Diesel’ to distinguish this engine from the model aircraft type which use a carburetted ether fuel mix. I am following two of Diesel’s principles for an efficient internal combustion engine, the compression of pure air and the self-ignition of the injected fuel due to the temperature of the air. He also proposed that combustion should be a constant pressure, although in reality I don’t think this was ever truly achieved, and the maximum expansion of the gas during the power stroke.

                              His first experiments were with solid injection of light fuel oil (kerosene) as the planned heavy oil was too difficult to handle. He was unable to achieve good enough atomisation to get a controlled burn and controlled pressure so he moved to air blast injection.

                              The helix plunger is made from a piece of a hardened and lapped pin gauge. I started out using hardened and lapped silver steel but after some problems with a trilobed piece I moved to the pin gauge. The helix is ground using a Proxxon hand tool in my Hobbymat lathe with the change gears set for 4mm pitch. The other end of the helix is annealed and threaded M2 for the tappet.

                              049 setting the cutting disc to centre height.jpg

                              050 first helix ground.jpg

                              #619515
                              Andy Stopford
                              Participant
                                @andystopford50521
                                Posted by Roger B on 02/11/2022 09:51:25:

                                …. He also proposed that combustion should be a constant pressure, although in reality I don’t think this was ever truly achieved, and the maximum expansion of the gas during the power stroke…

                                The helix plunger is made from a piece of a hardened and lapped pin gauge. I started out using hardened and lapped silver steel but after some problems with a trilobed piece I moved to the pin gauge. The helix is ground using a Proxxon hand tool in my Hobbymat lathe with the change gears set for 4mm pitch. The other end of the helix is annealed and threaded M2 for the tappet.

                                I doff my cap to you, sir. I've always thought it would be pretty tricky making a full-size pump element, let alone 2mm diameter (and with a Proxxon!).

                                I think part of the problem with constant pressure combustion was that it couldn't be hurried, and so was only (sort of) feasible in very large, slow running engines. Herr Diesel, aiming to use the Carnot cycle, originally intended that his engine should use isothermal compression (realised by injecting water into the cylinder), and isothermal combustion. It would have no cooling system, in fact the cylinder would be insulated. And it would also burn coal dust.

                                Unfortunately theory didn't translate to a workable engine (partly due to the extreme pressures that would be necessary), so Diesel omitted the isothermal compression, and after much experimentation and discussion with his team, ended up with a practicable cycle that used isobaric combustion. Modern, high speed engines seem to have a combination of constant volume and constant pressure phases.

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