Piston Ring Grooves and Rings

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Piston Ring Grooves and Rings

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  • #2603
    Brian H
    Participant
      @brianh50089
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      #532631
      Brian H
      Participant
        @brianh50089

        I'm looking at making pistons for my Ford 1896 Quadricycle which is a 2 cylinder engine with 16mm bores (0.629" in real money).

        As I see it, I could use Viton 'O' rings or cast iron or PB piston rings.

        Any thoughts would be more that welcome.

        If I used 2 metal rings, would they be better in their own grooves or would 2 rings in 1 groove be ok, maybe with pegs to stop rotation?

        Brian

        #532634
        JasonB
        Moderator
          @jasonb

          The last 6 or so IC engines that I have done I went with a single Viton ring in each, all run OK, make good compression and will turn over with very little friction.

          #532696
          Brian H
          Participant
            @brianh50089

            Many thanks Jason. Do you use the 'O' ring information given in "The Model Engineers Handbook"?

            Brian

            #532699
            JasonB
            Moderator
              @jasonb

              Yes, for a 16mm bore I would go with a metric 2.4mm cross section metric ring of 11.6mm ID. Groove 2.6mm wide x 2.3mm deep

              #532723
              not done it yet
              Participant
                @notdoneityet
                Posted by JasonB on 08/03/2021 19:19:26:

                The last 6 or so IC engines that I have done I went with a single Viton ring in each, all run OK, make good compression and will turn over with very little friction.

                As a matter of interest. What is the longevity of viton rings under a good load? 5 minutes, 5 hours, 3 days, 3 weeks, longer? What rotational speeds are we talking here?

                #532735
                Brian H
                Participant
                  @brianh50089

                  Many thanks for the information Jason. The Ford engine is slow revving and I will only be running it occasionally for short periods. If it runs at all it will be a minor triumph!

                  Brian

                  #532745
                  Tim Stevens
                  Participant
                    @timstevens64731

                    A conventional metal piston ring works because the pressure gets between the piston and barrel, behind the ring, and pushes the ring outwards against the bore. So two rings in one slot is not likely to work. And there is no point in pegging a ring unless there is a risk of it catching in a port or slot in the bore.

                    But I wonder if you can manage without a ring altogether – if your engine is just needed to run rather than produce power. From a dim memory of schooldays 70 years ago, model aeroplanes tended not to bother with rings.

                    My experience of Viton at resisting combustion is zero.

                    Hope this helps – cheers, Tim

                    #532755
                    Hopper
                    Participant
                      @hopper

                      Seems to be a common practice these days to run viton rings in model IC engines, which would seem to defy common sense yet seems to work.

                      Making cast iron rings is quite a bit of work by comparison to machine them oversize, cut them, squeeze them down to size and then machine to final roundness and size and to heat treat them. Never seen multiple cast iron rings in one groove. I don't think there would be any advantage to it. Multiple rings in multiple grooves has the advantage of acting as a multi-step labyrinth seal so the second ring/groove only has to control the blowby from the first, which means blowby past it is minimal. Then the third ring — in full size engines but not used in models often —  is usually an oil control ring to scrape away excess oil coming up from the crankcase below. If all that can be done with a single viton o-ring it sure makes life simpler.

                      Edited By Hopper on 09/03/2021 11:11:43

                      #532758
                      Nigel McBurney 1
                      Participant
                        @nigelmcburney1

                        I have restored a lot of stationary engines, from 1.5 to 5 inch bores,the earler engines 1895 to 1930 tend to have very wide rings a few 4 stroke were pegged .when I started 50 yrs ago no spares were available so it was relatively common to find engines which had a number of narrow car type rings fitted into the wide grooves on the older engines,so for a time i followed suit and fitted a stack of rings in the groove nearest the piston ,the remaining old rings were left in place,as I felt that too many modern rings would cause too much friction. This practice worked and improved compression in worn bores,after all the Clupet ring is like two rings joined together in a spiral and they work .Then for a long period we restorers found a company that made rings in small batches similar to the old style rings,they closed and since then I have made some rings from spun cast iron,on the last engine which had a worn bore I made two narrow rings to fit in one groove ,as I thought a narrower ring would flex a bit more and help with the sealing ,the next groovee had a full width ring and the last groove had one original ring, why leave an original ring,well a Hornsby instruction booklet stated when replacing piston rings always leave one original ring in place so thats what I did,so now I have a magnificent 1910 4hp Hornsby petrol o/c engine which runs very well.

                        #532768
                        JasonB
                        Moderator
                          @jasonb

                          NDIY, like Brian I only give my engines a short run for the fun of it so maybe 10mins long a few times when new and then just the odd run at a show or to let others see them running. Graham Corey of Alyn Foundry first put me onto them for IC engines as he had good results with them, He was very much into going to engine ralleys attending quite a few each year and would have his engines running all day so life if long. These would be iron bores, drip feed oiler and reasonably slow reving.

                          As said ringless is also possible with the smaller engines, I've done it on aero engines and also run some of my others without fitting the rings.

                          #532773
                          not done it yet
                          Participant
                            @notdoneityet

                            Thanks, JB.

                            I think I will stick to cast iron rings in my engines. Over 4” diameter with a stroke of over 6”, at just over a thousand rpm, with a three furrow deep digger plough behind needs original type innards!😀

                            #532797
                            Howard Lewis
                            Participant
                              @howardlewis46836

                              Modern engines can survive very well using two gas backed compression rings (With minimal gap ) and one oil control ring. But the dimensions and surface finishes are closely controlled for ring, groove, and wall pressure as well as the surface finish of the bore.

                              Too large a ring gap increases blowby, and damages oil control (Compression rings do influence oil control! )

                              Piston / bore clearance and piston attitude also affect noise, blowby and oil control.

                              Older engines used lower wall pressures, bigger gaps and ring / groove clearances, and rougher bore conditions.. Hence the need for three compression rings and two oil control rings, to deliver inferior oil control.

                              (With the need for careful running in, to provide oil control and blow by inferior to a modern engine.)

                              For an IC engine, C I would be my material of choice. A top ring of Viton could be subjected to quite high temperature if the engine is run fast under any sort of load.. Possibly OK for a lightly loaded engine run for short periods at relatively low speed, but less likely to survive prolonged hard work.

                              Howard

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