4 stroking a Merco 61…

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4 stroking a Merco 61…

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  • #424003
    Martin Field 1
    Participant
      @martinfield1

      Hi,

      I have a couple of Merco 61s and would like to try 4 stroking one of them for use in a model aircraft.

      I was thinking of going the usual pushrod and rocker method, but then started thinking about doing a belt driven OHC version, possibly even a twin cam.

      Can anyone direct me to a thread of any similarity or articles in ME over the years? I have a small lathe, but no milling machine so part would have to be fairly small.

      TIA,

      Martin

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      #2550
      Martin Field 1
      Participant
        @martinfield1
        #424005
        JasonB
        Moderator
          @jasonb

          Nemett Lynx would be a good one to take details from though for a conversion you would probably want to put the belt at the back of the engine.

          Twin cam 4-valve something like a HEMO would look good but I've not seen drawings for that.

          Edited By JasonB on 13/08/2019 20:34:04

          #424024
          Martin Field 1
          Participant
            @martinfield1

            Ah, I think I have some details of that somewhere.

            My problem is I can't do major components on my lathe and I don't have a mill, so it really needs to be lesser bits as part of a conversion.

            Thanks for your response.

            Martin

            #424035
            Former Member
            Participant
              @formermember32069

              [This posting has been removed]

              #424038
              Martin Field 1
              Participant
                @martinfield1

                I'm assuming, Barrie, that I would need to make a new liner and piston with no 2 stroke holes in them. That's just a start. I'll check out the Webra and Vega.

                Thanks,

                Martin

                #424042
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  I don't see why the small amount of milling could not be done on a lathe with the use of a vertical slide.

                  Barrie's suggestion of a rotary valve would save on making the cams but you are still going to meed to make a new back plate and head in either case. Just the cams that you would save on.

                  #424047
                  Former Member
                  Participant
                    @formermember32069

                    [This posting has been removed]

                    #424048
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb
                      Posted by Barrie Lever on 14/08/2019 08:02:44:

                      The rotary valve layout might save on making a crankshaft as well, I think it might be possible to pick up drive for the belt from the crankpin by getting a hole into the pin and pressing a drive peg into the hole.

                      Yes, that is what I was thinking to drive it off the crank pin, if there was any spare length on the pin then a socket to fit over it would save having to drill the pin. I'm assuming the pin was part of the crank rather than a separate pin inserted into the web which would have made it easy to just fit a longer pin.

                      Looking on the web it seems that there was a commercial conversion made by a company called Stebro but that used the traditional push rod arrangement. Would be worth searching to see how that drove the gears and cam.

                      #424060
                      John P
                      Participant
                        @johnp77052

                        Some useful and interesting threads in the RCME model flying forum

                        Engine projects
                        or I THINK it's all there ? By jeff2wings
                        and

                        4 stroking a Merco…
                        By Foxfan

                        If you are going to superimpose an existing valve timing
                        layout from another engine it is as well to remember the
                        Merco engines have an offset alignment from the crankshaft
                        to cylinder bore (Desax) so it may be wise to work this
                        out before cutting metal

                        John

                        #424064
                        Niels Abildgaard
                        Participant
                          @nielsabildgaard33719

                          Why not try a worlds first:saml.jpg

                          #424067
                          Martin Field 1
                          Participant
                            @martinfield1

                            Thanks, gents. I do like the neat approach of the Webra rotary valve, but I know nothing about them and would feel a bit lost.

                            The Stebro has all its valve gear at the back so must have taken the drive off the pin somehow or was perhaps a new crankshaft.

                            Niels, the Vega was a side valve, like your drawing, but where on your drawing is the drive to a twice as big gear to get 1/2 speed rotation for the cams?

                            Martin

                            #424068
                            JasonB
                            Moderator
                              @jasonb
                              Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 14/08/2019 09:26:18:

                              Why not try a worlds first:

                              How do you get a 4 cycle from that with the cam being on the crankshaft?

                              Stripped down Stebro here which seems to show a smaller pin in the crankpin but the gear block is the wrong way round to see if there is a mating disc on the pinion.

                              Edited By JasonB on 14/08/2019 09:42:02

                              #424070
                              JasonB
                              Moderator
                                @jasonb

                                This Jan Ridders engine gives an idea of how the rotary valve works, ideally the valve would be placed in the head more like this. Probably offset the cam to one side of the head and have the inlet and exhaust on opposite sides then you would have room for the spark plug. Or keeping to the twin cam theme you could have twin rotary valves which may make sealing easier

                                Edited By JasonB on 14/08/2019 09:54:50

                                #424074
                                Martin Field 1
                                Participant
                                  @martinfield1

                                  Thanks, Jason. Interesting pictures. Pretty much as expected, except for the drive to the smaller gear. I can see a smaller pin pressed into the crankpin, but where does it engage the smaller cam gear? It is, after all, at full stroke, so to go then to a twice size gear with the cams on would suggest a much bigger box at the back. Pity we can't see the cams either.

                                  But all in all I think this is the way to go for simplicity.

                                  Interesting that the Stebro was slightly more powerful than the OS too.

                                  Martin

                                  #424079
                                  Martin Field 1
                                  Participant
                                    @martinfield1

                                    I imagine leakage is a problem with rotary valves. But thanks for the reference to Jan Ridders' apparently simple idea.

                                    I was thinking like you that a drive disc with a smaller pinion behind it would have to be the answer on the Stebro. I can't see any dint where the smaller gear (pinion) takes the drive off the extra pin. Also, the backplate of the Merco is quite deep into the engine, whereas the Stebro gear casing is ON the back rather than IN the back so how does that little extra pin even reach the smaller gear?

                                    Strange.

                                    Martin

                                    #424084
                                    JasonB
                                    Moderator
                                      @jasonb

                                      I would imagine that the pinion is mounted onto a shaft with integral disc and some form of bearing is trapped between gear and the back of the disc. To reach far enough inside the hole in the disc could be extended out from the surface of the disc., may want to add a small counter balance to the disc to compensate for the extension.Sketch shows two discs so the extended hole can be seen and how they may go together. Think I would be tempted to but a bearing on both sides of the pinion either ball or bronze.

                                      stebro drive.jpg

                                      #424087
                                      Martin Field 1
                                      Participant
                                        @martinfield1

                                        That arrangement wouldn't work , Jason as there is nowhere to house the ball race in the Stebro gear casing. I think there's a bronze bearing behind the gear. It shows on the assembled engine outside. I was wondering where an inner bearing could go…unless I'm looking at the gear casing effectively inside out (which I may well be, come to think of it!)

                                        Martin

                                        #424092
                                        JasonB
                                        Moderator
                                          @jasonb

                                          The bearing I show would fit in the backplate not the crankcase.

                                          As you have a deep recess in the back of the crankcase the bearing(s) can sit in a spigot turned onto the front face of the backplate, this would then also move the disc further in towards the crank pin so you can then locate the drive easily.

                                          stebro backplate.jpg

                                          So the backplate would look something like this on the side that fixes to the crankcase with spigot to fit the case and a recess for a bearing and through hole.

                                           

                                          Edited By JasonB on 14/08/2019 11:21:21

                                          #424102
                                          Martin Field 1
                                          Participant
                                            @martinfield1

                                            Jason,

                                            I'm very impressed by your rapid ability to draw on the old pootah!

                                            I can see well what you're suggesting, but wonder what goes on on the gear side of the plate you show nearest to us…or, is that just a generic "face" to actually be part of the gear casing? In which case I understand. Then there would be the double sized gear with the cams on above it?

                                            I have just received an astonishing offer from Jon who makes Laser engines to help by supplying a gear set and cams from one of their "deceased" engines. I'm hoping they will fit the Merco crankcase.

                                            Martin

                                            #424107
                                            JasonB
                                            Moderator
                                              @jasonb

                                              Yes it was just a generic plate that would be more of a block with hollowed out areas for the gears.

                                              Have you gone off the belt idea as the shaft that the larger gear runs on would easily take a toothed belt.

                                              The gear scan be placed back far enough so that they don't have to fit the Merco crankcase but ideally you would not want the enclosure to be much larger than the width across the case.

                                              If you are going for gears, cam and pushrods then have a look at the head for the Nemett "Bobcat" which is quite simple to make

                                              #424111
                                              Martin Field 1
                                              Participant
                                                @martinfield1

                                                jason,

                                                I haven't necessarily gone off the belt driven idea, but with Laser Jon's kind offer it would seem to make sense to go with gears, but I will certainly have a look at the Nemett engine. I did once buy a Workshop Special magazine with a Nemett engine in . I must see if I still have it.

                                                Cheers,

                                                Martin

                                                #424114
                                                JasonB
                                                Moderator
                                                  @jasonb

                                                  I think the special had the linx in it which is the belt drive OHC, but if going for pushrods then the Bobcat/jaguar head would suit

                                                  #424118
                                                  Martin Field 1
                                                  Participant
                                                    @martinfield1

                                                    That does look pretty simple, Jason. Is there a drawing anywhere for that?

                                                    I do recall it was the Lynx in the magazine.

                                                    Martin

                                                    #424119
                                                    Martin Field 1
                                                    Participant
                                                      @martinfield1

                                                      I am still keen on belt drive though, I must say. Decisions, decisions.

                                                      Martin

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