Kittiwake Major – A Bit of a Mystery!

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Kittiwake Major – A Bit of a Mystery!

This topic has 64 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 20 July 2021 at 11:39 by Nigel Richardson.

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22 May 2016 at 21:00 #239807
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
An extremely generous forum member (I'll let him decide if he wants to identify himself, but he is a forum regular!) has given me a very old set of part-machined castings for an Edgar T. Westbury.

It seems ETW, published Kittiwake in 1944 following 'extensive testing'. In his book on Model Petrol Engines he claimed it was a development of the 1935 Kiwi Mk 1. Thjis is a bit of a porky as it was a 1930 design and the bits of Kittiwake came with an original (and very delicate) Geo. Kennion Blueprint of a drawing dated 1930 with the ball bearings and wet sump claimed as improvements over Kiwi! The castings are for a water cooled engine, although the drawing shows an air-cooled one. It has a very fine v-arrangement for the push-rod operated overhead valves.

In ME 2275 of 1944, ETW described the engine as a 15cc air-cooled one.

In ME2359 of 1946 FH Miller also described the 15cc version.

In ME 2766 of 1954, AE Clauson wrote a letter about a 30cc Kittiwake Major.

Now the interesting thing is that the 1930 blueprint is for an air-cooled Kittiwake Major, but these castings are clearly for a 30cc water-cooled version.

The only example I can find on the web is a 15cc version, air cooled and with the wet sump for the gearbox missing.

Clearly the Kittiwake story is not a simple one! Can anyone help me with any of the three articles/letter mentioned above?

Also what is the best way to remove light surface corrosion from aluminium alloy castings without damaging them?

Neil (very excited…)
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22 May 2016 at 21:00 #2455
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Help with more details
22 May 2016 at 21:29 #239810
Nick_G
Participant
@nick_g
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/05/2016 21:00:33:

Neil (very excited…)

.

You are going to need a bigger lathe.

Nick
22 May 2016 at 21:59 #239814
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Looking at the castings, they are clearly pressure die castings and of excellent quality. That suggests he was planning mass production, perhaps that's why he didn't publish.

Neil
22 May 2016 at 22:14 #239818
Roderick Jenkins
Participant
@roderickjenkins93242
According to Ron Chernich's Index of ETW's engines the only engine that seems to fit the bill is Kittihawk :4SOHV 1.76 cu in drawn as PE18 . Whether there is a water cooled option on the plan you are probably in a better position to find out than me – he certainly offered both options for Kiwi MkII. The fount of all ETW wisdom is Eric Offen – Jason can probably put you in touch.

HTH

Rod
22 May 2016 at 22:37 #239823
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/05/2016 21:00:33:

Also what is the best way to remove light surface corrosion from aluminium alloy castings without damaging them?

Neil (very excited…)

.

Garryflex block [cut to useful shapes] lubricated with Solvol [Autosol]

MichaelG.
22 May 2016 at 22:45 #239824
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
I'm pretty sure Kittyhawk is Kittiwake Major. PE18 fits the Kittiwake Major drawings. The MHS page says "A 30cc air-cooled OHV four-stroke engine. (Vols. 91-92)1 1/4in bore x 1-7/16in stroke, this is an enlarged version of PE5."

The 'Kittyhawk' found easily on the web me in the fifties appears to have been fabricated and has a very different arrangement for the valve gear.

On The Wire has an example of a boat that turned up fitted with an air cooled Kittiwake Major, Boxotrix. Ironically it was featured in a 1955 ME with a different engine fitted! I wonder if it acquired AE Clauson's 1954 Kittiwake Major?

Neil
22 May 2016 at 23:32 #239829
Phil P
Participant
@philp
Regarding your corrosion problem, glass bead blasting is what I normally do to give a nice finish to aluminium castings.

Eric Offen is the "go to" man for information as already mentioned above, he is a member over on MEM, maybe your question could be put there as well.

Phil
22 May 2016 at 23:39 #239830
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
Well I should have all of those forties and fifties MEs in my collection, and most of my collection is now unboxed after our move last year, so I will go and have a look. I can scan them for you.

Two minutes later…The 1946 one is sitting on the scanner, I will upload to my album once it is done. The others have not come out of their boxes yet, but I will see if I can find them later today. I have a complete collection of ME from 1940 on, plus maybe a quarter of the years before that.

OK, done. I will get onto looking for the others after I go and get the tyre changed on my car.
23 May 2016 at 05:18 #239838
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
But wait, there's more..

I haven't found the 1944 issue yet, but they will be here somewhere. We moved a year back and there are still boxes to unpack.

regards

John
23 May 2016 at 07:30 #239845
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Neil, let me know if you want me to contact Eric. You may also want to look at Jo's thread on MEM where she is building a Kiwi and Kittwake , the Kittyhawk is the larger 30cc version for the larger class of racing.

As Phil says bead blasting would be best on teh castings, garryflex is OK for machined but won't do much on the lightly textured surface of castings
23 May 2016 at 07:36 #239848
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 22/05/2016 21:59:36:

Looking at the castings, they are clearly pressure die castings and of excellent quality.

.

Jason,

That ^^^ is why I suggested Garryflex and Solvol

[but, I bow to your wisdom]

MichaelG.
23 May 2016 at 07:41 #239850
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Having handled a few kity and kiwi castings I would say they are too rough for garryflex but would like to see some pics of Neil's bits to be sure.
23 May 2016 at 07:49 #239851
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
That's great,

Thanks John. There is a full at at MTM headquarters but it';s 150 miles away and they are bound and impossible to put flat on a copier even if I was there!

Neil
23 May 2016 at 08:00 #239852
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
My thought on looking at the castings is Ajax and a scrubbing brush! Bead blasting might be the best way to go, but I may try a nylon brush on the dremel first..

I will put some photos up later.

I have looked at Eric Offen's website, I will drop him an email when I have a photo or two to send hime (if you can pm me his email that will be great, thanks Jasonb).

Found the Kiwi build thread.
23 May 2016 at 08:11 #239854
mgnbuk
Participant
@mgnbuk
**LINK**

I have used this product for many years for cleaning motorcycle castings – sand and die cast, Other suppliers are available – I got my last lot from Millers Oils trade counter in Brighouse.

It is economical to use, as the supplied concentrate is heavily diluted before application. I use a trigger action spray bottle to apply the product & agitate with a stiff plastic brush or Scotchbrite pad, keeping the surface wet with the product. Use rubber gloves ! When the oxidation is dissolved, rinse off with clean water & apply a water displacer to protect from further corrosion. Doesn't remove or damage the parent metal, but it does dull previously polished surfaces.

For badly corroded motorcycle parts I degrease first, then use Alubrite, then glass bead blast in a desk-top blast cabinet that my 2 Hp compressor is barely up to running. It is possible to get BMW sand cast parts to look "as new" like this, but I have found that castings that have been badly corroded & cleaned up start to corrode again more easily than castings that were not allowed to get into such a state in the first place.

Nigel B
23 May 2016 at 08:23 #239855
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
That looks serious stuff, Nigel

Worth noting for the surface etch [for bonding]

Thanks

MichaelG.

MSDS
23 May 2016 at 08:30 #239857
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Adrian who has sort of taken up the reins of Model Engine News has an article on cleaning magnizium engine castings which may be of interest.

PM sent
23 May 2016 at 11:34 #239877
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Hmm, reading Adrian's article, I think i need to do a density test – I suspect these may be magnesium castings.

Neil
23 May 2016 at 11:41 #239878
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
You should be able to feel it easy enough, I handled a set of the Stuart Lightweight castings which are magnisium and they are so much lighter than aluminium. The mag ones are likely to be noticably blacker than any aluminium parts in the same set of castings.

Westbury did publish a design for a supercharger for 30cc engines if you fancy that too Neil, did have a cast mag outercasing but could be cut from solid

Edited By JasonB on 23/05/2016 11:47:11
23 May 2016 at 14:42 #239890
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
I'v just been looking through my copy of Edgar T. Westbury's "Model Petrol Engines", and I notice under the cam diagram for "Kittiwake" is this(designed by Mr D. H. Chaddock), did he design just the cam, or the whole motor? Ian S C
23 May 2016 at 17:48 #239915
Roderick Jenkins
Participant
@roderickjenkins93242
The link I gave above to the Kittiwake article is on the ModelEngineer website but came up as the result of a Google Search. I know Tubal Cain's Sally build is also on there but there is no link that I can find from here. What else is lurking in this hidden corner?

Ian,

As far as I can make out, ETW was a very talented practical engineer but he worked closely with both Col. Bowden and Prof. Chaddock. In order to design cams properly you need to have a good understanding of the resultant valve displacement and acceleration and I think, in the days before digital computers, ETW got Chaddock to do his difficult sums.

Cheers,

Rod
23 May 2016 at 17:59 #239918
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
Yes it would be nice to know what else is in there Rod, I think a lot was put on in David Clarke's time.

Neil, assuming you have access can an index be provided or just a list of documents?
23 May 2016 at 18:43 #239924
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Here is the original blueprint:

The plans are definitely marked Kittiwake Major:

But I was wrong about the year, my conspiracy theory crumbles! It's 1939:

And the castings themselves:

I think they may be ally, they are light, but not super-light and don't look black at all. There's no corrosion where they have been in contact with other metals either which apparently is worse with magnesium. They may have been fettled as one inside surface shows signs of sandcasting where it was a little short of metal.

The rocker cover was anodised by my benefactor, apparently some 50 years ago! It's a bit scratched but the upper surface is still bright. Might be teh best way to fish the model, if I can get a good enough finish.

Screws holding the crankcase together (brass) were not seized and came out easily. I used some Lidl rust-dissolver spray and the lovely castellated nuts at each end of the crank came free.after about ten minutes with modest effort. The crank came out of the bearings with a gentle tap from a nylon faced hammer.

Inside the crankcase is clean, despite being partly open to the elements. The central portion of the crank is sound though I may need to skim the big end, or rather polish it. It's in Evaporust now, and I expect to get a wholly usable part as it runs in bearings. I expect the 1:10 taper to be fine as it is very fine rust, although all over, presumably it's a good hi tensile steel that resists rust.

The cylinder liner looks great on the top half – still shiny! – but the bottom is corroded more, not sure if it will be possible to rescue it by honing until evaporust does its work. I think the piston rings could compensate for 2-3 thou of honing, if not there is a cast iron blank for another cylinder liner.

@ Ian – which page of the book are you looking at, I can't find the cam in it.

@Jason/Rod – There's no index to those articles that I can find, although I think Google can sometimes find them, but changing 1 to 2 in the URL works:

Kittiwake Part 1

Kittiwake Part 2

Uploading PDFs is a nightmare, you have to memorise the name of the file and edit into the name of another one, I haven't been abl;e to find any way of listing what is on the server.

There are some worthwhile download under Features – article reprints and features- magazine reprints on the green bar at the top of the page.

Neil

<edit – oops forgot the pictures!>

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 23/05/2016 18:44:35
23 May 2016 at 19:03 #239925
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
The bearings – two sets of ball races, 0.500 x01.125 x 0.250". One with 16 crowded balls, and two opposed insertion notches – you don't see that often these days. Marked "Hoffman Made 5.5 " on the outer race and "c.o. 5.5" on the inner

The other has 11 balls in a brass or bronze cage of riveted construction. "KL 2" on the outer and "KL 14P2" on the inner.

The back one had plenty of clearance to get it out with a bit of 15mm copper pipe and the little nylon hammer.

The front one was at the back of a hole just clearance for the crankshaft (to stop oil leaks). I had to use the shank of an old 13mm drill which just tapped into the hole and then forced the bearing out.

The accuracy of the light press fits of the bearings on crankshaft and in the crankcase suggest the work was done by someone who really knew their stuff.

I don't suppose Ketan lists these under the old numbers, but a pair of R8s should be fine (at least one has to be open as the oil passes through it to get back to the pump, but maybe a R8RS at the front and slightly open up that clearance hole in case it has to come out again.

Neil
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