Beginner I/C engine

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Beginner I/C engine

This topic has 26 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 17 September 2015 at 19:51 by Martin Field 1.

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16 September 2015 at 16:55 #204566
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Hi all, I'd forgotten I'd signed on here, Heaven knows back when, but with my full sized car projects gone, I got back to wondering about making a working model engine, something I've always wanted to do.

I have some model aircraft and boats to do, but summer is a-going out and I tend to think of indoor projects.

I would prefer a 4 stroker and petrol powered, but would consider glow plug.

I have to work within the tools I have, which are:-

Peatol (Taig) lathe with decent three jaw chuck, vertical slide, indexing plate and a small (very) mill/drill attachment I made from a minidrill and what remained of a fax machine, which clamps in the vertical slide.

I don't have a milling machine and have little chance of getting one.

I am a pretty experienced silver solderer and filer of shapes, since I spent most of my working life as a producer of brass patterns for model kits.

Considering the above limitations, is there an engine on which I could cut my I/C teeth, that you would recommend?

Many thanks in anticipation.

Cheers,

Martin
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16 September 2015 at 16:55 #2437
Martin Field 1
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@martinfield1
16 September 2015 at 17:17 #204570
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Oh, I forgot to mention, my son has a slightly bigger lathe of the 2 1/4" persuasion and an Adept hand shaper, should I need them.

Martin
17 September 2015 at 07:31 #204638
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
With the size machines you have you will be quite limited in what you can handle. Off hand I can't think of any 4-stroke that could fit.

Most of the smaller engine designs are for Compression ignition diesels of which you should be able to do some of the barstock designs though the lack of a 4-jaw chuck is going to be a disadvantage. Something like the Boll-Aero springs to mind which you should be able to find on google, I think one has been converted to glow.

Another option may be to try and scale down a barstock glow engine but there are a lot less designs about, have a look at this engine which could be reduced to 75% but again you would really need a 4-jaw.

J

Edited By JasonB on 17/09/2015 07:56:10
17 September 2015 at 10:59 #204659
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Jason, thanks for the answer. I was beginning to think nobody had seen my post.

Disappointing though on the 4 stroke front.

I suppose I could get a 4 jaw for the Peatol, but a mill is out of the question. I checked some ads and prices and they're either so big they'd go clean through the shed floor or smaller and way too pricey.

If I invested in a 4 Jaw for the wee lathe, does that give me a wider range of engines to try?

I wasn't keen on the looks of the Boll-Aero, tbh.

Cheers,

Martin
17 September 2015 at 12:24 #204666
steve de24
Participant
@stevede2433577
Martin,

There are plans for a 4 stroke that could be made with small machine tools but it's not of the model aircraft type.

I'd post a link but Windows 10 and MS Edge don't want to play this morning!

Go to homemodelenginemachinist.com and search for Tiny I.C. Engine – there is a full set of plans.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=7397

Regards,

Steve

Edited By John Stevenson on 17/09/2015 13:26:06
17 September 2015 at 13:22 #204669
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Steve,

that sounds interesting. It doesn't have to be aero in nature. I have model boats that could be IC powered, too.

Many thanks,

Martin
17 September 2015 at 13:29 #204670
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The 4-jaw would be almost essential for any of these engines as it allows you to hold square and odd shaped parts. I still have doubts as to how much you could actually swing on your lathe and allow enough room for the work plus the jaws beyond that.

The Tiny needs more milling than the aero engines and being of the Hit and Miss horizontal layout not ideal for a boat.
17 September 2015 at 14:11 #204674
Bernard Payne
Participant
@bernardpayne58193
I seem to remember an article in M E on building a Matador 4 stroke on a peatol, can't remember when but certainly before 1998. The plans are not listed from the ME page but are available from mytime media on the RCM&E pages they refer to it as a twin but as you will see from the picture it is a single. I have not built one but believe that it does not require castings. If I can find a reference to the article I will post it.
17 September 2015 at 14:11 #204675
Tim Chambers
Participant
@timchambers76147
How about this one?

Should be do-able on a Taig along with plenty of "armstrong" milling. On my Taig the biggest problem I had was holding anything firmly enough in the three jaw chuck, the ali soft jaws did'nt grip tightly enough and workpieces were always shifting out of true. Get a four jaw. The Sherline lathe use's the same spindle nose thread if you want a better chuck, but then you think "Shall I spend money on the Taig or would it be better put towards a bigger machine."

I made this on a Taig.
17 September 2015 at 14:42 #204676
Bernard Payne
Participant
@bernardpayne58193
Reference for building Matador on a Peatol is volume 160 page 220. Is it a case of"doesn't time fly" or "how and why did I remember that article?"
17 September 2015 at 15:16 #204683
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
I replaced the chuck on my Taig with an Indian made all steel 3 jaw from RDG Tools, which does not suffer the lack of grip of the original. I don't know how I did without the newer one for so long. The Indian one is superb, having no visible run out whatsoever. I also see that the Harborne gent offers a steel four jaw independent for the Peatol, so I might have to get one.

I have downloaded all the prints for the Tiny. I reckon it could go in an old harbour launch type of boat with a set of bevel gears and maybe a simple friction clutch.

Or…why couldn't it go upright?

I assume I could mill out the base for the Tiny using the vertical slide on the Peatol? I have no idea about milling. On the few occasions I have tried it, all I got were steps and grooves!

Martin
17 September 2015 at 15:37 #204685
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Jason,

much as I have read the term "hit and miss", I have no idea what it is. However, assuming it is like the Bolinders in canal boats and that they fire when they feel like it, I would say that the video of the Tiny shows something far from that and indeed a revvy little number that would certainly need gearing for use in a boat.

The glass cylinder is more of a coffee table engine than a serious attempt.

I have a few steam stationaries. It's IC that I really want to make.

The Matador…wasn't that a bit of a biggie? Is it possible to get backnumbers?

Cheers,

Martin
17 September 2015 at 15:55 #204687
CotswoldsPhil
Participant
@cotswoldsphil
Hi Martin,

I built a Matador but used Jones 605 castings which saved a lot of bar / block work. As of now, I can't find where I put it for safe keeping! It became the power-plant for a Hirobo helicopter.

I my youth I built a similar sized engine on a Unimat from a casting kit.

Regards

Phil
17 September 2015 at 15:59 #204688
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Phil, that's encouraging. I used to have a Unimat and the Taig can do anything the Unimat could, except the Unimat had that very useful vertical column, which the Taig/Peatol could deperately do with, but they only sell the whole mill at nearly a grand! Nothing like the pricing structure of the lathe, unfortunately.

I'll look up the Matador.

Martin
17 September 2015 at 17:09 #204695
CotswoldsPhil
Participant
@cotswoldsphil
Hi Martin,

Yes, the milling column was a bit fiddly to set up but it was quite versatile.

Phil
17 September 2015 at 17:11 #204696
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Perfect for drilling spoke holes in model car wheels!

Martin
17 September 2015 at 17:58 #204701
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Some details and pics here.

**LINK**

Also some head scratching as to what it was given that there were two Matador designs
17 September 2015 at 18:06 #204703
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Seems to have been a Hawk 40, rather than a Matador. The Matador, being a more conventional kind of OHV pushrod design.

I would think the Matador would be a stretch using a small lathe, though.

Martin
17 September 2015 at 18:56 #204712
CotswoldsPhil
Participant
@cotswoldsphil
Hi All,

Please note I did not build a Matadore on a Unimat it was as I remember, a similar sized engine from a casting kit available at the time (late 60's) my Uncle obtained. I mentioned Matadore because I used Jones 605 2 stroke castings in it's construction, effectively using the Matador design to convert a Jones 605 to a lightweight 4 stroke.

The drawing I used was for a Matadore .60 Four stroke engine by D Giles – overhead valve not rotary. I'm looking at the drawing now, having retrieved it from the archive – wish I could find the actual engine though!

Phil
17 September 2015 at 19:10 #204714
steve de24
Participant
@stevede2433577
Martin wrote :-

"much as I have read the term "hit and miss", I have no idea what it is. However, assuming it is like the Bolinders in canal boats and that they fire when they feel like it, I would say that the video of the Tiny shows something far from that and indeed a revvy little number that would certainly need gearing for use in a boat."

In a hit and miss engine there are governor weights (usually on the flywheel) which move outwards as the flywheel speeds up. At a certain speed a linkage from the weights will hold open the exhaust valve so there are no intake, compression, power and exhaust strokes – just air going in and out of the exhaust port. When the flywheel has slowed down enough the exhaust valve is released to operate normally and you get one, two or more power strokes until the flywheel has speeded up enough for the exhaust latch to operate again. When load is put on the engine there are more hit and fewer miss cycles – under full load the engine is not missing any cycles.

As originally designed the Tiny is not a hit and miss engine but at least one has been fitted with the required mechanism – I'm sure details are in the very large build thread that was linked to – it is well worth reading regardless.

Hope this helps – Steve

Edited By JasonB on 17/09/2015 19:12:12
17 September 2015 at 19:23 #204715
Gas_mantle.
Participant
@gas_mantle
Posted by Martin Field on 17/09/2015 15:37:01:

much as I have read the term "hit and miss", I have no idea what it is.

Cheers,

Martin

Hi,

Like you I wasn't sure how a hit and miss engine works but came across this video which explains things nicely.

**LINK**

Peter.

Edited By Peter Nichols on 17/09/2015 19:23:57
17 September 2015 at 19:24 #204716
steve de24
Participant
@stevede2433577
Jason, thanks for correcting my mistake with the names – cutting and pasting is just too convenient sometimes and I seem to become blind to errors on the screen. Thanks also due to John Stevenson for sorting out the link in my earlier post.

Steve
17 September 2015 at 19:25 #204718
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
I wonder if the Nemett Bobcat could be done, its a 7.5cc or 0.45cu.in. air or watercooled versions can be done. It basically a single cylinder one of these with the cylinder on top.
17 September 2015 at 19:36 #204721
I.M. OUTAHERE
Participant
@i-m-outahere
Hi Martin,

You could of course copy one of the engines you already have , this will give you an idea as to the general layout required and from there you could begin to design your own engines .

I would start with a two stroke as there are fewer parts and no camshaft or valvetrain to give you grief.

Ian.
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