Sweet William

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Sweet William

This topic has 19 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 27 January 2023 at 18:07 by D.A.Godley.

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7 January 2023 at 14:13 #628001
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Could I ask ; has anyone built a Sweet William fired by gas ?
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7 January 2023 at 14:13 #2175
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
7 January 2023 at 18:00 #628056
Baz
Participant
@baz89810
Cannot remember it being done on a Sweet William or Pea but have seen a Simplex converted.
8 January 2023 at 15:59 #628191
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Baz ,

I. see Mr Factotum is overhauling a gas firing arrangement for a Sweet Pea , so I guess it’s not unusual, but I have no idea how the upscaling will effect its performance in regard to Sweet William.

In an effort to bring on youngsters and those with no exposure to the engineering workshop , we at Wolverhampton, are commencing the build of a Sweet William 0-6-0 Locomotive, giving them the hands on and mentored experience.

As a charity , it’s part of our constitution to do so , and it was thought this Loco would give the chance to encounter most of the lessons needed for those wishing to develop.

The suggested use of gas to fire the loco has been made , hence my enquiry , to see if I could gain from others knowledge, MEW , may be the wrong forum to make these enquires, sadly I don’t have access elsewhere , but thank you for responding.

David
8 January 2023 at 17:40 #628214
Baz
Participant
@baz89810
David the way coal supply is going we may all be looking at gas firing in the future. I would imagine that a Sweet Pea / William would be a much easier conversion than a conventional loco firebox as there no obstructions, axles etc in the way, something as crude as a Sievert burner mounted on Sweet Williams firebox closure plate may do the job. I am amazed that nobody else has replied so far.
8 January 2023 at 18:49 #628232
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
If you can reach out to California I recall on a visit to LALS (Los Angeles Live Steamers) all their locos were gas fired owing to the extreme fire risk.
A great bunch by the way, on the other side of the hill from the famous Hollywood sign, near the zoo.
10 January 2023 at 17:05 #628514
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Posted by Bazyle on 08/01/2023 18:49:36:

If you can reach out to California I recall on a visit to LALS (Los Angeles Live Steamers) all their locos were gas fired

Bazyle ,

Thank you for your suggestion , I have emailed them and eagerly await a reply .

David
24 January 2023 at 18:27 #630863
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Somewhat disappointed in our Model Engineering brothers from USA, I have not had so much as a “ we have got your message “. And it was on their website ? , I did think talking was one of their strongpoints , and before asking , I visited it again after about a week of no response from the first occasion, guess what , no response this time either? .
24 January 2023 at 20:03 #630873
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
No idea why LALS or IBLS have not responded. Could just be no one has been checking their email portals recently. At some clubs in the US there is no one there, or very few people there, mid week. Busier at the weekends, generally, I understand.

In any case, at one time a few years ago many people at LALS were using a burner setup by Marty Siegel, called the "Marty burner". (no idea where they get these cryptic names.) They do work well, I have used them in several projects and they do throw some heat. Very simple to make. A link is below to the IBLS page on these, just FYI. Note that as with any gas burner in an enclosed space they are very sensitive to draft and a heavy exhaust blast at the chimney will pull the fire off the burners. If planning a gas fire I suggest making the blast pipe easily removeable or easy to modify, in case you need much less or a little more blast.

http://ibls.org/mediawiki/index.php/Marty_Burners
24 January 2023 at 20:09 #630874
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
A further thought – J E Nystrom in Finland has built several gas fired steam locomotives and has developed a few types of burner for use in them. Might be wise to have a look at his web pages and maybe email him for practical advice. Jan-Eric is a great guy and if he tries an approach an it does not work out – he's honest about it, and tells us about it! Just as important to know what doesn't work as it is to know what does.

http://sparetimelabs.com/animato/animato/steam/index.html
24 January 2023 at 22:11 #630886
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Jeff ;

Many thanks for your input , it sounds most interesting and I shall certainly follow up both of your suggestions.

David
24 January 2023 at 23:14 #630891
noel shelley
Participant
@noelshelley55608
I had often thought of making a gas burner based on the burner panel from one of the old super ser 3 panel room heaters. The ceramic panel could be cut to size and sealed in it's box with air setting fire cement and then experiments to get the gas and air flow, both primary and secondary (top ) right. Just a thought. Noel..
25 January 2023 at 18:28 #630949
duncan webster 1
Participant
@duncanwebster1
David, check your inbox.

The average radiant gas fire has a radiant area about 8" * 12", 96 sq in. Even a big 5" gauge loco has only 35 sqin or so. Gas fire produces 4 or 5 kW, coal fire in loco will produce 25 kW or so when working hard. It's not straightforward to burn gas in a loco firebox and get the same output.

Edited By duncan webster on 25/01/2023 18:34:55
25 January 2023 at 19:30 #630956
Rick Hann
Participant
@rickhann79631
David,

I think it would be possible for you to fire your sweet William with propane. I don't know what scale you are working with, but I successfully fired a 3-1/2" Gauge Rob Roy with propane ceramic burner (firebox approximately 3"x2&quot. Burner output approximately 18,000 BTU. There is a lot of information on gas firing, but you have to look for it. If you want to see it running, just google Utube (Rick's Rob Roy). With a small firebox, it is a bit like trying to put 10# in a 5# sack. Good Luck! Rick
25 January 2023 at 22:01 #630968
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Duncan , have responded to your message, many thanks .

Rick , kind of you to join in with your experience.

Some useful pointers have been given by other responders, which will give me leads to chase up , the Marty Burners in particular since drawings are to hand , and I shall definitely watch the Rob Roy on YouTube .

Sweet William is 71/4” by the way .

Best wishes

David
25 January 2023 at 23:29 #630976
duncan webster 1
Participant
@duncanwebster1
Posted by Baz on 07/01/2023 18:00:26:

Cannot remember it being done on a Sweet William or Pea but have seen a Simplex converted.

Bit of a long shot, but do you have any details, or any link to its owner? Firebox on one of my locos is just a bit bigger than simplex,so could save me some hair tearing
26 January 2023 at 03:51 #630984
phillip gardiner
Participant
@phillipgardiner
i run Martys burners in my shay the firebox is about 200mm x 125 i have made and fitted eight burners that run on two pound pressure never run out of steam and never have to clean the tubes. i live near newcastle in australia and cannot get decent burning coal.
26 January 2023 at 07:47 #630993
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Phillip , thank you for joining in on this topic , and the personal experience and knowledge you have .

Do you run your loco at a track where members of the public attend or is it members only ? , what are the Insurance implications ? , is it cost effective , though if you can’t get coal , I guess that’s a stupid question .

There are many more questions I would like to ask , if you have no objections.

David .
27 January 2023 at 16:30 #631113
Rick Hann
Participant
@rickhann79631
David, It seems that your best option for propane firing is the Marty Burner. You do need a large enough firebox to be able to install the burners without too much flame overlap. If you are so inclined to play around with Btu outputs versus orifice size, gas pressure and other variables, I found the following site to be helpful. Rick

ronreil.abana/BTU-Caculator.xls
27 January 2023 at 18:07 #631127
D.A.Godley
Participant
@d-a-godley
Rick,

I have , just now , watched your YouTube posting , the running of your Rob Roy , it certainly seems to perform well .

It would be very useful for me to get some information from you regarding the plumbing, what safety features , etc you have employed ? . Many in my club , I think , regard this method as the Black Arts , fearing all sorts of disasters, but I am sure that managed properly , with sensible precautions, it’s as safe as any method .

If it’s not too much of an imposition, could you email me the features you built into your system , Bottle to Burner ? , I would very much appreciate that .

David
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