Unknown attachment for vintage lathe (1895)

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Unknown attachment for vintage lathe (1895)

Home Forums Workshop Tools and Tooling Unknown attachment for vintage lathe (1895)

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  • #614915
    vic newey
    Participant
      @vicnewey60017

      An unidentified attachment that came with my Pittler C3 lathe that fits on the toolholder thread of the cross-slide. It has a see through spindle with a gear wheel fixed on and the spindle has a small taper and but not MT or anything I recognise, it can tilt to different angles and be raised and lowered with a handle like an elevating slide rest. connected.jpg

      attachment.jpg

      attachment2.jpg

      scale.jpg

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      #20798
      vic newey
      Participant
        @vicnewey60017
        #614922
        Pete Rimmer
        Participant
          @peterimmer30576

          I think that it's most likely a gear cutting attachment. The hollow spindle holds the blank via a drawbar and tapered arbor. The vertical shaft must be fixed as it crosses axes with the rotating spindle so that's most likely a mount for a direct-indexing fixture. The gear is probably swappable with other lathe change-gears or it might be a handy integer like 48T. The 45 degree each way scale makes it handy for making bevel gears.

          Can it be mounted 90-degrees rotated from it's present orientation?

          Edited By Pete Rimmer on 25/09/2022 17:38:29

          #614923
          Bill Davies 2
          Participant
            @billdavies2

            As Pete says, and possibly other indexing operations. Presumably would require a verical milling head to make it usable? The spindle casting has an additional boss, so perhaps a home-brew made from existing parts or own castings.

            The fine adjustment on the cross-slide is interesting. Seems overkill for adjusting depth of cut for gear teeth, or maybe its for grinding?

            Bill

            #614924
            vic newey
            Participant
              @vicnewey60017
              Posted by Pete Rimmer on 25/09/2022 17:38:02:

              I think that it's most likely a gear cutting attachment. The hollow spindle holds the blank via a drawbar and tapered arbor. The vertical shaft must be fixed as it crosses axes with the rotating spindle so that's most likely a mount for a direct-indexing fixture. The gear is probably swappable with other lathe change-gears or it might be a handy integer like 48T. The 45 degree each way scale makes it handy for making bevel gears.

              Can it be mounted 90-degrees rotated from it's present orientation?

              Edited By Pete Rimmer on 25/09/2022 17:38:29

              ——————————————————–

              It can be swivelled or mounted in every conceivable direction also taking into account the round saddle of the lathe. It could be swivelled to face something held between centres, also the saddle casting can be turned over so that the cross-slide is installed from the nearside. I haven't counted the teeth on the gear, I'll check it

              The gear is fixed to the bolt casting you see on the photo so no way to add different gears.

              #614926
              vic newey
              Participant
                @vicnewey60017
                Posted by Bill Davies 2 on 25/09/2022 17:58:50:

                As Pete says, and possibly other indexing operations. Presumably would require a verical milling head to make it usable? The spindle casting has an additional boss, so perhaps a home-brew made from existing parts or own castings.

                The fine adjustment on the cross-slide is interesting. Seems overkill for adjusting depth of cut for gear teeth, or maybe its for grinding?

                Bill

                —————–

                The milling head normally supplied by Pittler would make this thing cumbersome by comparison. If using one then the cutter is held in the headstock as most likely with this attachment.

                No home made stuff, the whole thing is really well made with jib adjusters etc, also parts have beautifully engraved single letters here and there.

                You mention the cross-slide but it is not part of the attachment, what you see is the normal Pittler C3 slide lots of photo's in my album if anyone is interested

                #614931
                Martin Kyte
                Participant
                  @martinkyte99762

                  Is it all there? I would maybe expect a worm wheel fitted to the vertical rod mating with the skew spur gear and then indexing plates. That is if it is an indexing attachment.

                  regards Martin

                  #614935
                  Bill Davies 2
                  Participant
                    @billdavies2

                    Vic, I didn't make clear that I was referring to the slide at the bottom of the attachment. The surprising feature for me is the small worm and wheel, is there a ratchet that operates it? I can't see a micrometer dial to indicate the amount of travel.

                    Bill

                    #614937
                    vic newey
                    Participant
                      @vicnewey60017
                      Posted by Martin Kyte on 25/09/2022 19:11:48:

                      Is it all there? I would maybe expect a worm wheel fitted to the vertical rod mating with the skew spur gear and then indexing plates. That is if it is an indexing attachment.

                      regards Martin

                      ———————-

                      This has to be something rather different from a gear cutting attachment

                      Pittler lathes were the worlds first universal milling and turning machines, they specialised in being able to do all sorts of ornamental turning and attachments were made for cutting of spirals, worms, wheels, bevel cutting, ball turning etc and non of them look anything like this.

                      The standard equipment included a dividing spindle as in this photo from my other Pittler, using this in conjunction with the standard milling head would make this attachment utterly pointless. It just doesn't add up, the long length of the spindle makes no sense either, very odd indeed

                       

                      index.jpg

                      Edited By vic newey on 25/09/2022 20:04:59

                      #614939
                      Rod Renshaw
                      Participant
                        @rodrenshaw28584

                        I can't really add anything to the debate about the function of the attachment, but what a wonderful looking machine! It's like something in transition between the Maudsley type of very early lathe and the more modern lathes from the 1920s onwards.

                        #614940
                        not done it yet
                        Participant
                          @notdoneityet

                          I presume you have already enquired to Tony Griffiths?

                          #614943
                          vic newey
                          Participant
                            @vicnewey60017
                            Posted by not done it yet on 25/09/2022 20:15:26:

                            I presume you have already enquired to Tony Griffiths?

                            ——————————-

                            Tony won't be able to help, I already run the biggest vintage Pittler website myself which includes Youtube videos of the machine running

                            My Pittler website

                            #614946
                            vic newey
                            Participant
                              @vicnewey60017
                              Posted by Bill Davies 2 on 25/09/2022 19:47:30:

                              Vic, I didn't make clear that I was referring to the slide at the bottom of the attachment. The surprising feature for me is the small worm and wheel, is there a ratchet that operates it? I can't see a micrometer dial to indicate the amount of travel.

                              Bill

                              ———

                              Hello Bill,

                              the worm and wheel are for power cross feed via the universal joint, because the leadscrew is inside the bed this is how von Pittler got around the problem. The machine also has a power circular feed using the same UV

                              here is a video of me testing it out Power cross-slide on the Pittler C3

                              #614948
                              Bill Davies 2
                              Participant
                                @billdavies2

                                Thanks, Vic. That's a lovely looking machine. I have a Britannia which must be a smilar vintage and shares some of the styling of the period and (before I painted it an inappropriate grey) a black finish. But a much less sophisticated machine, although it sounds similar when running.

                                Bill

                                #614951
                                vic newey
                                Participant
                                  @vicnewey60017
                                  Posted by Bill Davies 2 on 25/09/2022 21:08:32:

                                  Thanks, Vic. That's a lovely looking machine. I have a Britannia which must be a smilar vintage and shares some of the styling of the period and (before I painted it an inappropriate grey) a black finish. But a much less sophisticated machine, although it sounds similar when running.

                                  Bill

                                  ———————————–

                                  Yes my Pittler C3 makes a nice clatter as it runs through the various gears to the final drive

                                  I just love old machines, for me that is the enjoyment rather than what I could make on them. I have 2 Pittlers from 1895, a Holbrook from 1937 and a South Bend from 1939.

                                  #614953
                                  Nigel Graham 2
                                  Participant
                                    @nigelgraham2

                                    I'd go with it being for e.g but not solely, gear-cutting using the cutter in the chuck, and a gear (one of the lathe's own change-wheels?) as divider. The sturdy stanchion would hold the detent, and if that's missing it ought be reasonably easy to make one compatible in style and quality with the machine generally.

                                    The power cross-feed would be part and parcel of such use; but presumably also for plain turning. Though the universal-joints look rather close to their angular limits for consistent rotation: can their first shaft be set further back?

                                    It is all a beautiful machine-tool anyway, evidently made for fine work.

                                    #614955
                                    Michael Gilligan
                                    Participant
                                      @michaelgilligan61133

                                      Vic,

                                      Please excuse what is probably a digression, but

                                      Inspired by this puzzle to browse all things Pittler, I have just stumbled across his rather beautiful patent for a universal milling machine:

                                      **LINK**

                                      https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/77/13/64/7b1e6c7a2372d4/US580195.pdf

                                      MichaelG.

                                      #614969
                                      DC31k
                                      Participant
                                        @dc31k
                                        Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 25/09/2022 22:17:19:

                                        …a gear (one of the lathe's own change-wheels?) as divider.

                                        If you look closely at the photo, the gear that is on it at the moment is not a straight cut spur gear. Its teeth are sloping/skewed/helical. That may support the suggestion someone above made about a worm to mesh with it which may be missing.

                                        Why did they drill out the 'wings' of the wing nut? Is that like a loud exhaust pipe or go faster stripes?

                                        #614982
                                        Michael Gilligan
                                        Participant
                                          @michaelgilligan61133
                                          Posted by DC31k on 26/09/2022 07:49:13:

                                          Why did they drill out the 'wings' of the wing nut? Is that like a loud exhaust pipe or go faster stripes?

                                          .

                                          laugh

                                          More likely so that a wrench of some sort could be discreetly applied

                                          MichaelG.

                                          #614985
                                          Nigel Graham 2
                                          Participant
                                            @nigelgraham2

                                            I see what you mean! It has a very gentle helix angle though, and is definitely not a regular worm-gear.

                                            I looked at the drawing Michael's link opens, of Pittler's patent-application for a universal milling-machine. That is festooned with worm-drives, so it's feasible that Vic's lathe attachment gives the some similar functions. Although the patent drawing shows the worm-wheels are clearly that.

                                            There is another detail about it. Outside of the gear is what looks like a locking detent that engages a hole faintly visible on the second photograph. There appears only one hole in the wheel, and the detent does not seem a quick-release type.

                                            .

                                            Vic – I reckon you'll have to carry out some careful experiments!

                                            #614986
                                            Nicholas Farr
                                            Participant
                                              @nicholasfarr14254

                                              Hi, I have seen wing nuts with holes in the wings, which were manufactured that way, but they were normally quite large ones, so maybe for reducing their weight, which if you had a large number of them on a machine, could make quite a difference to the overall weight of the machine.

                                              Regards Nick.

                                              #614988
                                              Martin Kyte
                                              Participant
                                                @martinkyte99762
                                                Posted by Nicholas Farr on 26/09/2022 09:04:00:

                                                Hi, I have seen wing nuts with holes in the wings, which were manufactured that way, but they were normally quite large ones, so maybe for reducing their weight, which if you had a large number of them on a machine, could make quite a difference to the overall weight of the machine.

                                                Regards Nick.

                                                More likely a reduction in the material cost of the nut.

                                                regards Martin

                                                #614990
                                                vic newey
                                                Participant
                                                  @vicnewey60017
                                                  Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 25/09/2022 22:17:19:

                                                  The power cross-feed would be part and parcel of such use; but presumably also for plain turning. Though the universal-joints look rather close to their angular limits for consistent rotation: can their first shaft be set further back?

                                                  ——————————

                                                  The universal joint still works at acute angles and is intended to be used near the headstock end of the lathe, it's long shaft has a keyway slot that locates in the inline gear wheel so can slide along to it's limit. there is also a short further extension as in the photo below which shows a gear fitted on the end of the cross-slide stem for ball turning

                                                  extending.jpg

                                                  uv joint.jpg

                                                  #614992
                                                  vic newey
                                                  Participant
                                                    @vicnewey60017
                                                    Posted by Martin Kyte on 26/09/2022 09:15:23:

                                                    Posted by Nicholas Farr on 26/09/2022 09:04:00:

                                                    Hi, I have seen wing nuts with holes in the wings, which were manufactured that way, but they were normally quite large ones, so maybe for reducing their weight, which if you had a large number of them on a machine, could make quite a difference to the overall weight of the machine.

                                                    Regards Nick.

                                                     

                                                    More likely a reduction in the material cost of the nut.

                                                    regards Martin

                                                    ——————————————————————

                                                    The holes in that wingnut were made by a previous owner, the other one at the rear that locks the cross-slide stem is as original with no holes in it

                                                     

                                                    Edited By vic newey on 26/09/2022 09:28:39

                                                    #614993
                                                    vic newey
                                                    Participant
                                                      @vicnewey60017
                                                      Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 26/09/2022 08:57:32:

                                                      I see what you mean! It has a very gentle helix angle though, and is definitely not a regular worm-gear.

                                                      I looked at the drawing Michael's link opens, of Pittler's patent-application for a universal milling-machine. That is festooned with worm-drives, so it's feasible that Vic's lathe attachment gives the some similar functions. Although the patent drawing shows the worm-wheels are clearly that.

                                                      There is another detail about it. Outside of the gear is what looks like a locking detent that engages a hole faintly visible on the second photograph. There appears only one hole in the wheel, and the detent does not seem a quick-release type.

                                                      .

                                                      Vic – I reckon you'll have to carry out some careful experiments!

                                                      —————————————–

                                                      I will indeed!

                                                       

                                                      The hole you mention is for oiling the spindle as it goes right through

                                                      however here is a rare type of drum type milling head I got with the machine, it has a stem that fits in the saddle casting in place of the cross-slide and is powered from an overhead drive.

                                                      It has a cross-slide and and rotation of the drum and it's cutter via top handle. It's cutter can be turned to any angle and runs via the worm and wheel mechanism. Not got the overhead pulley set up so not tried it yet.

                                                      cutting frame.jpg

                                                      drum cutter4.jpg

                                                       

                                                      Edited By vic newey on 26/09/2022 09:47:25

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