Dividing head for Tom Senior Mill advice

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Dividing head for Tom Senior Mill advice

Home Forums Workshop Tools and Tooling Dividing head for Tom Senior Mill advice

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  • #589203
    Rannsachair
    Participant
      @rannsachair

      I have just bought a Tom Senior Mill and was after some dividing head advice for a Light Vertical with S type head: I quite fancy getting a dividing head and a few questions come to mind:

      1. What size? from mounting face to centreline.

      2. Better looking out for a good old English made one or are the Chinese one's ok, if so what make to look at?

      Thanks

      s-l1600.jpg

      s-l1600 (2).jpg

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      #20643
      Rannsachair
      Participant
        @rannsachair
        #589209
        Emgee
        Participant
          @emgee

          As it seems you have a good height from spindle to table I believe a BS0 Dividing head will suit your machine and provide a good range of divisions and working angles.

          Emgee

          #589216
          Rannsachair
          Participant
            @rannsachair
            Posted by Emgee on 10/03/2022 19:47:23:

            As it seems you have a good height from spindle to table I believe a BS0 Dividing head will suit your machine and provide a good range of divisions and working angles.

            Emgee

            Thanks, appreciated, that is 4" centre

            #589217
            old mart
            Participant
              @oldmart

              _igp2672.jpgOur light vertical at the museum has lost about 1" of Z height since I converted it to R8 from MT2, but the 6" vertical/horizontal rotary table fits on it no bother. With a 5" chuck on it the height is hardly any more than your vise with swivel base. I say rotary table rather than a dividing head as it will do everything that a DH will do and all the angles in between. Dividing heads are primarily for production work for fast indexing over a limited number of positions, and you may regret not going for a RT. Some time back,I bought a long cranked handle for moving the knee when there was something heavy on it, and the one I got on ebay had 7 castellations in it, easy with a RT at approximately 51 degrees and 26 minutes each.

              Edited By old mart on 10/03/2022 20:29:54

              #589218
              Simon Williams 3
              Participant
                @simonwilliams3

                As a Senior citizen (Light Vertical division) myself, and the owner of a BS0 head I can vouch for their compatibility.

                Having said that I have done a number of jobs where I thought a dividing head which could be mounted horizontally or vertically would be a good thing. Then I bought a 6 inch (being the diameter of the rotating platen) rotary table and all was well in the world.

                I also have a 10inch diameter rotary table; this is too big for this little mill as it's too easy to not be able to reach the centre of the table with the limited y axis travel.

                #589221
                Rannsachair
                Participant
                  @rannsachair
                  Posted by old mart on 10/03/2022 20:23:49:

                  _igp2672.jpgOur light vertical at the museum has lost about 1" of Z height since I converted it to R8 from MT2, but the 6" vertical/horizontal rotary table fits on it no bother. With a 5" chuck on it the height is hardly any more than your vise with swivel base. I say rotary table rather than a dividing head as it will do everything that a DH will do and all the angles in between. Dividing heads are primarily for production work for fast indexing over a limited number of positions, and you may regret not going for a RT. Some time back,I bought a long cranked handle for moving the knee when there was something heavy on it, and the one I got on ebay had 7 castellations in it, easy with a RT at approximately 51 degrees and 26 minutes each.

                  Edited By old mart on 10/03/2022 20:29:54

                  Thanks, food for thought

                  #589223
                  old mart
                  Participant
                    @oldmart

                    I checked out my picture album and there were some photos of the 6" Soba RT on it, unfortunately the wrong way round, but better than nothing.

                    _igp2653.jpg

                    #589232
                    Bazyle
                    Participant
                      @bazyle

                      The Elliott one shown on a recent thread was intended for that size machine (Elliott equivalent) but does not tilt.

                      #589239
                      Emgee
                      Participant
                        @emgee

                        Why recommend a rotary table that can only be used vertically or horizintally when a BSO Dividing Head will do both and any angle from -1 to +90 degrees.

                        Yes you can fit the rotary table to a sine table but that reduces rigidity and increases the overall height.

                        Emgee

                        Edited By Emgee on 10/03/2022 22:17:52

                        #589242
                        Steviegtr
                        Participant
                          @steviegtr

                          I have the same mill. I bought a 8" indexing rotary table , with the 8" 3 jaw chuck. It was way too big for the mill table. I have since sold that & bought a 6" Vertex style & it's just the right size for the Senior. No indexing plates though. Not something i think i may ever need. Oh what have i said. Never say never.

                          P.S. Nice looking machine you have got there rannsachair. If you are thinking of doing any mods to it, I have a few youtube vids of the many mods done. Tom Senior light vertical

                          Steve.

                          #589244
                          Saxalby
                          Participant
                            @saxalby

                            Likewise, have a Senior "Major" mill and can recommend the BSO. Use it quite a lot for cutting spur gears and with the tilt facility on the BS0 have done lots of bevel gears.

                            Barry

                            #589255
                            JasonB
                            Moderator
                              @jasonb

                              Although a rotary table can only easily be mounted flat or at 90 deg they do tend to be a lot lower when used flat than a dividing head when it is set vertically. Add onto that something to screw onto the nose so you can hold work like a chuck and that is the height to be considering not so much when it is set a zero.

                              See my post part way down this page for illustration

                              So first best to decide what you are going to be wanting to divide, if it's a lot of gear cutting and radial holes then the dividing head is probably best. If it's a lot of axial holes such as bolt PCD are machining curved parts then a rotary table may be the better option.

                              #589265
                              Rannsachair
                              Participant
                                @rannsachair
                                Posted by JasonB on 11/03/2022 07:11:44:

                                Although a rotary table can only easily be mounted flat or at 90 deg they do tend to be a lot lower when used flat than a dividing head when it is set vertically. Add onto that something to screw onto the nose so you can hold work like a chuck and that is the height to be considering not so much when it is set a zero.

                                See my post part way down this page for illustration

                                So first best to decide what you are going to be wanting to divide, if it's a lot of gear cutting and radial holes then the dividing head is probably best. If it's a lot of axial holes such as bolt PCD are machining curved parts then a rotary table may be the better option.

                                Thanks, looks like I will focus on a dividing head.

                                #589290
                                Phil P
                                Participant
                                  @philp

                                  Just for your interest, this is a genuine Tom Senior indexing & dividing head with tailstock.

                                  I made a new spindle for it to use Burnerd multisize collets, and I use it on my Alexander Master Toolmaker milling machine.

                                  simplex engine 041.jpg

                                  Edited By Phil P on 11/03/2022 10:58:14

                                  #589296
                                  David-Clark 1
                                  Participant
                                    @david-clark1

                                    A BS0 should be fine.

                                    I had one of there Tom Senior Light Verticals,and they are great.

                                    Mill 5head height is not usually a major problem.

                                    Turn the mill head at 45 degrees and the dividing head at the same angle will increase the capacity considerably.

                                    You can clock up the centre of the dividing head spindle and as long as you only use the y movement of the table you should be able to do very large workpieces. A bit of trigonometry should enable you to mill in the x directin.

                                    i can’t remember the cross slide travel but by positioning the dividing head on the table and the mill head in relation to it, you could probably divide about a 12 inch diameter workpiece.

                                    I fitted a digital readout to my Tom Senior. I can’t remember If,I wrote it up but if not, I probably have the photos.

                                    #589301
                                    David-Clark 1
                                    Participant
                                      @david-clark1

                                      Further advice after looking at the main photo.

                                      you might like to remove the vice bottom plate. Increases rigidity when milling.

                                      Also if you have two similar vices side by side, you can hold longer workpieces between them or use one as a stop, hold any odd scrap of metal in one vice as a stop for the second vice.

                                      Also, a ring spanner is very useful as a vice handle but don’t over]tighten it.
                                      For Abwood vices a 19 mm ring is ideal and if you cut the handle of a ring spanner, so it is only 2 inches or so long, you can use it as a spinner to open and close the vice fast.

                                      #589326
                                      old mart
                                      Participant
                                        @oldmart

                                        Shame there is no one mentioning the exact height of a BSO with chuck when used in a vertical position. Even though it comes with indexing plates, it is still only a dividing head and cannot rotate at any angle. I have 3 dividing plates and there are many missing positions. When I wanted 118 divisions, there was no way with the plates to get that. I would like one for its strong locking tilt, but only in addition to already having the RT, which holds a 5" three jaw scroll and also a 6" 4 jaw independent.

                                        #589330
                                        Anonymous
                                          Posted by old mart on 11/03/2022 13:55:14:

                                          …wanted 118 divisions, there was no way with the plates to get that…

                                          Simple enough to make one, index 20 on a 59 hole plate. Here's one I made for 63 and 69 divisions, as I was too idle to set up for differential dividing:

                                          Division Plate

                                          The ideal set up would be a dividing head and a horizontal/vertical rotary table. As discussed by JasonB they have different strengths and weaknesses.

                                          Andrew

                                          #589335
                                          DC31k
                                          Participant
                                            @dc31k
                                            Posted by Andrew Johnston on 11/03/2022 14:18:18:

                                            Posted by old mart on 11/03/2022 13:55:14:

                                            …wanted 118 divisions, there was no way with the plates to get that…

                                            Simple enough to make one, index 20 on a 59 hole plate.

                                            I am not sure if your reply is tongue in cheek or meant to be serious, but if he had a 59 plate, he could produce the 118 from it directly. 118 = 59 x 2 and 59 is prime.

                                            #589336
                                            DiogenesII
                                            Participant
                                              @diogenesii
                                              Posted by old mart on 11/03/2022 13:55:14:

                                              Shame there is no one mentioning the exact height of a BSO with chuck when used in a vertical position…

                                              Immediately beneath the photo in thelink below, there's some text that says 'BS0 Dividing Head Manual', which is a link to a pdf (although it doesn't look like one)

                                              Chronos – BS0 Precision Dividing Head

                                              The point of a centre up the bore is shown as being 7.59" from the back surface, so given that the base is square-'ish' and the flange will sit level-'ish' with the end of the thread (so below the point a centre, say 1/2"?), it looks like the overall height of the flange will be about 7" off the deck with the thing pointing 'up' – a chuck will be another, what, 3", bringing the lot to about 10"… ..I guess a lot will depend on what chuck / backplate combo is available – a recess mount chuck would be nice, eh? ..is it an American thread?

                                              #589338
                                              JasonB
                                              Moderator
                                                @jasonb

                                                I think Andrew meant make a 59 hole plate as that's an easier number to fit onto a blank than 118. I believe Old mart has a DRO so should not be a problem to come up with any number of holes on a disc provided they fit.

                                                Difficult to give an exact height when a div head is vertical with chuck as it will depend somewhat on the size of chuck being used and a threaded body one will result in a lower overall height than one on a threaded backplate.

                                                #589340
                                                old mart
                                                Participant
                                                  @oldmart

                                                  I have the 3 dividing plates for the 6" RT's but lacking the 59 hole and for one probably never to be repeated scale (3mm pitch leadscrew on an imperial lathe cross slide, hence the 118 divisions) it would not be worth it. And how could you make one if you only had a dividing head?

                                                  #589351
                                                  Anonymous
                                                    Posted by DC31k on 11/03/2022 15:00:23:

                                                    …or meant to be serious…

                                                    It was meant to be serious. My bad for mentioning engineering on a modelling forum. sad

                                                    I made the assumption that if "old mart" had a 59 hole plate available he would have had the wit to use it. Assuming a 40:1 dividing head the indexing needed at each step is 40/118, times 9 to the get the answer in degrees. One can use the prime factorisation theorem to simplify to 20/59.

                                                    The easiest way to make the plate is using a DRO with a bolt function, which is what i did. But there are other methods which do not need a DRO – see one of the Bedside Readers, can't remember which volume. Any errors in the radial placement of the holes will be reduced by a factor ot 40.

                                                    Andrew

                                                    #589361
                                                    old mart
                                                    Participant
                                                      @oldmart

                                                      I have the reference charts for all the dividing plates which came with the RT (3), and when looking for 118, was surprised just how many numbers were missing. This would not affect many people who are quite happy with the 24 positions common to most dividing heads, which give 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12 and 24 equally spaced positions before resorting to the dividing plates.

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