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Lathe query.

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  • #567596
    Paul Hassell
    Participant
      @paulhassell73733

      Good morning,

      I am new to this site, but I am very impressed with the whole ethos and helpfulness i am seeing so far.

      I have recently inherited a Town Woodhouse lathe by virtue of buying a house with it still left in situ in the workshop, and because I have always wanted a Lathe it was a no brainer to try it.

      Now with the 3 phase switched on and the start button pressed it just seemed to be jammed with sparks coming out of the contactor. I have managed to get a wiring diagram for this lathe and it seems the whole machine was wired up badly and differently to the diagram, so I rewired it all to the original diagram and guess what ? It still wont start but there are no sparks now !

      So I am fairly sure it must be the contactor which was why somebody had attempted to rewire it, is it worth me just buying a cheap 25 quid contactor from ebay just to confirm this, and presuming this cures my problem what make contactor would people recommend as a long term fix.

      Sorry for the long post. Paul.

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      #20463
      Paul Hassell
      Participant
        @paulhassell73733
        #567603
        John Hinkley
        Participant
          @johnhinkley26699

          Welcome, Paul,

          If the first couple of lathes shown on lathes.co.uk are anything to go by, you've got a nice bit of kit there. How fortunate, too, to have three-phase available in your workshop. I can't help with your firework display, but, with more information and a photo or two, there are a lot of forum members au fait with all things electrickery who will be able to sort you out, I'm sure.

          John

          #567614
          larry phelan 1
          Participant
            @larryphelan1

            I moved house a few years ago, but sad to say did not get either 3 ph or lathe as part of the deal !

            Lucky you ! Fear not, someone here will sort out your problems.

            Starter may simply be burned out. I would just buy a new unit ant take it from there.

            #567615
            Ian Parkin
            Participant
              @ianparkin39383

              Paul

              welcome to the forum

              if you have a meter check for 415v across pairs of phases on the supply side of the contactor…so you need 3 sets of 415v

              then when energised check for the same on the motor side of the contacts

              Ian

              #567619
              Emgee
              Participant
                @emgee

                Paul

                More info re make and type of starter and motor would help to give some advice, pictures speak a thousand words.

                Emgee

                #567624
                Rod Renshaw
                Participant
                  @rodrenshaw28584

                  Welcome Paul

                  All good advice above, but if you should be unfamiliar with working with it, please be aware that 415v will kill the unwary.

                  240v sometimes gives you a second chance but 415v is not forgiving

                  Apologies if you know all this.

                  Rod

                  #567626
                  Tim Stevens
                  Participant
                    @timstevens64731

                    If your garage is covered by your house insurance, it might be necessary (or at least helpful) to get the electrics checked by a qualified electrician, and a form signed saying what he checked and found OK. Unless of course you are such a bloke, in which case you ought not to need to ask questions like this.

                    Just a thought – its your garage and your life, after all.

                    Cheers, Tim

                    #567644
                    Brian Morehen
                    Participant
                      @brianmorehen85290

                      Try diconectining the motot at the motor end then operate the contactor if this operates then the fault may be your motor , There are a number of things you can try which depends on how famiilar you are with electricity and if you have a meter. ( Make Sure that all of the motor leads at the motor end are all clear and have some insulating tape round them be fore you test the contactor if you are not happy withe this idea leave alone. 3 PHASE CAN KILL

                      Regards BeeM

                      #567677
                      Paul Hassell
                      Participant
                        @paulhassell73733

                        Thanks for the warm welcome and helpful replies, I would gladly post up a photo or two if I knew how to lol.

                        I have had the 3 phase to the lathe checked and the supply is fine, and I have checked the resistances across the windings in the motor, and they too are reading correct.

                        Is there an easy way to trst the contactor, either in situ or on the bench ??

                        #567684
                        Michael Gilligan
                        Participant
                          @michaelgilligan61133
                          Posted by Paul Hassell on 22/10/2021 08:06:25:

                          […]

                          I would gladly post up a photo or two if I knew how to lol.

                          .

                          It’s top on the list of FAQs, Paul : **LINK**

                          https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=103028&p=1

                          … and should probably be ‘required reading’ for any mew member

                          MichaelG.

                          #567696
                          Ian Parkin
                          Participant
                            @ianparkin39383

                            Paul if you have a meter as you have checked the resistances of the windings then with the power off check for resistance on the contacts of the contacter when you press the contacts together.

                            then check resistance of the coil on the contactor

                            #567700
                            Juddy
                            Participant
                              @juddy

                              If you are confident with your rewiring I would obtain a Siemens contractor and overload unit rated for your motor. You will have to be careful with the selection as the contactor coil voltage maybe different to the line voltage, do you have a transformer in circuit that will reduce the control voltage? The control voltage could be anything from 24v D.C. to 240v (phase & neutral) or full 415v.

                              Before you buy a contractor check if there is an overload unit attached to the original unit if there is and it has tripped it will prevent the contactor closing, there will be a reset button on one side of the overload to reset it. Reset it with the power off. If it trips again the setting could be wrong, it maybe an old oil dash pot type and needs the dash pots refilled with oil or you have a fault with the motor, or the motor/head is seized and it is an overloaded motor.

                              Edited By Juddy on 22/10/2021 10:41:50

                              #567706
                              Paul Hassell
                              Participant
                                @paulhassell73733

                                Mmmm I think I may have to concede here, I have a bit of electrical knowledge but not enough to guarantee I wont electicute myself, I dont suppose there is anybody more competent than me in the West Wales area on this forum who fancies the job ??

                                I will read up on how to post the pictures later and put some up.

                                #567711
                                Emgee
                                Participant
                                  @emgee

                                  Paul

                                  Pleased to see you have seen the light, good decision if you have any doubts, some pictures will certainly assist in providing reasons for the failure.

                                  Emgee

                                  #567714
                                  Robert Atkinson 2
                                  Participant
                                    @robertatkinson2

                                    Before you jump into electrics, can you turn the lathe by hand?

                                    Either at the chuck or belt /motor. It the spindle is locked you will get an electrical overload. Mis-cordinated controls could lock the spindle.

                                    Robert G8RPI.

                                    #567719
                                    Howard Lewis
                                    Participant
                                      @howardlewis46836

                                      As Robert says, start checking for mechanical problems. BUT start at one end and work your way through.

                                      Is the motor free to turn?

                                      Then check through the drive train to the Chuck to see if anything is locked / seized.

                                      It might only be an overlength bolt, an overtightened clamp, or a seized bearing.

                                      It could even be that back gear is engaged without freeing the driven pulley from the mandrel.preventing rotation, or defect in the gear selection mechanism all owing two speeds to be engaged at the same time..

                                      Once a mechanical problem has been eliminated then start the same logical sequence on the electrics, starting at the power feed switch, and following through to the motor feed cables..

                                      Power OFF, use a multi meter, of course

                                      Howard

                                      #567730
                                      John Haine
                                      Participant
                                        @johnhaine32865
                                        Posted by Rod Renshaw on 21/10/2021 17:37:48:

                                        Welcome Paul

                                        All good advice above, but if you should be unfamiliar with working with it, please be aware that 415v will kill the unwary.

                                        240v sometimes gives you a second chance but 415v is not forgiving

                                        Apologies if you know all this.

                                        Rod

                                        Quite true. But the most likely scenario is that one touches a live conductor while another part of you is earthed. Nominally mains neutral is at earth potential and relative to neutral "live" is 230V. But relative to neutral each line of a "415V" 3-phase supply is ALSO at 230V. The 3 phase is 415V phase-phase voltage. So touching one of the phase wires from a safety point of view is no more dangerous (which isn't to say that it's safe!). If you connect yourself phase to phase of course it would be a different matter.

                                        Whatever, whether 1-phase or 3-phase, mains electricity is dangerous and should be treated with respect!

                                        #567734
                                        Brian Morehen
                                        Participant
                                          @brianmorehen85290

                                          Many things you can try if you have the required knowledge , if the answer is know leave alone ,Retired Electrical Engineer & Contractor . I am always very wary about offering advice on anything electrical because of the Danger part . wish you were round the corner and lived in Cambridgeshire.

                                          Good Luck

                                          Bee.M

                                          #567742
                                          not done it yet
                                          Participant
                                            @notdoneityet
                                            Posted by John Haine on 22/10/2021 13:01:51:

                                            Whatever, whether 1-phase or 3-phase, mains electricity is dangerous and should be treated with respect!

                                            Power OFF, use a multi meter, of course – as per Howard.

                                            I say ‘Pull the fuse as well’. I put the fuse in my pocket, if apppropriate. Most circuits are protected/controlled by MCBs these days – you don’t want anyone to inadvertently switch one back on!

                                            And if you happen to be checking mains connections while energised, please use a multimeter which is safe for those operations – many are not and some that are ‘reasonably’ safe may not be, when in inexperienced hands.

                                            One lad, I remember, finished up on the wrong side of the room, but luckily without the crucible he was rushing to remove from a laboratory kiln at 1200C! Another was an electrician who was thrown off a gantry some 15m high but luckily landed on the side of a heap of not-too-hot clinker which cushioned his fall.

                                            Back of hand towards possible contact points is always a good idea, along with the other hand in your pocket – less chance of grabbing hold of a DC supply or getting a shock across your ticker.

                                            #567799
                                            Chris Mate
                                            Participant
                                              @chrismate31303

                                              The contactor should have an operating coil and a hold coil.

                                              I would disconnect motor belt from lathe gearbox.

                                              Does the contactor operate from 24V from a 24V transformer-?, but of course it must swirtch 380 V to the motor.

                                              If motor checks out ok, and contactor has no visible burning or damage, so if it operates it puts the phases in cross contact, so if contactor looks ok, I would use an insulated stick and manually push it in, if motor starts and you hold it in it runs, if this is ok, then the contacts are ok, but the operating coil which maybe 24V is faulty, or if it operates but falls out the holding coil is faulty, or the pathes involved, like a safety cct wiring.

                                              A safety CCT broken(Switch/Wire) could then also prevent it from operating.

                                              #567810
                                              Phil Whitley
                                              Participant
                                                @philwhitley94135

                                                To really be able to do a diagnosis we meed pictures of motor, inside motor terminal block, and inside the starter, but check the following in this order. all with power OFF!

                                                Remove belts and turn the motor, it should spin freely and cary on for a rev or two when given a hand spin.

                                                check for any motor bearing play which could be allowing the rotor to touch the stator.

                                                wrap a couple of turns of cord round the motor pulley and give it a brisk pull, does the motor still spin freely?

                                                Check the motor rating plate and see that it is a 3 phase motor!

                                                Remove the motor terminal block cover and check the connections and the visible condition of the insulation.

                                                Check the smell of the motor, it should smell slightly of varnish and oil, if it has a very strong burnt pungent smell, it is the motor windings that have failed.

                                                The motor will be star connected, three coil ends will be connected together on a spare terminal, and the other three ends will have one phase each connected to them, I am assuming the motor is a similar age to the lathe, and does not have the star connection point buried in the windings,

                                                With a multimeter set to resistance, connect one proble to the star point, and then test from each phase in turn, all readings should be virtually identical within 1-3 ohms of each other is ok.

                                                You really need a megger tester to check the motor windings insulation from earth, but if you get any reading with a multimeter from the star point or any phase to earth (motor case) be suspicious that the motor is at least damp, and needs drying out. If you have or can get someone to megger test the insulation you want at least 1Megohm to earth. Hold the megger test on, or keep winding if it is a wind the handle megger, and if the reading starts to improve, the motor is damp, use a fan heater, hot air gun or even domestic oven on low to dry it out.

                                                Check the belts are not catching anywhere.

                                                Turn the lathe belt pulley, Is the lathe in gear? Is the clutch (if fitted) engaged or disengaged? disengage the clutch, and put the machine out of gear so that the chuck does not turn when the lathe pulley is turned, and then check that the lathe pulley turns freely.

                                                In order to diagnose the starter, we need an internal pic, and also one of the motor plate and inside the motor terminal box. Does the starter "chatter" when the green button is pressed, ie does the amature jump in and out rapidly and repeatedly, if it does you have confirmed that the coil is working (in some way) so the next check would be the holding in contacts, and the overload tripping contacts, but without knowing what type of starter it is I can go no further at the moment, hope this helps!

                                                Phil

                                                #568263
                                                Paul Hassell
                                                Participant
                                                  @paulhassell73733
                                                  Posted by Brian Morehen on 22/10/2021 13:41:16:

                                                  Many things you can try if you have the required knowledge , if the answer is know leave alone ,Retired Electrical Engineer & Contractor . I am always very wary about offering advice on anything electrical because of the Danger part . wish you were round the corner and lived in Cambridgeshire.

                                                  Good Luck

                                                  Bee.M

                                                  I was just around the corner in North Essex before I moved to West Wales in March Bee.m.

                                                  Sorry for delay in getring back on here, been really busy with work, i will post up photos i have now.

                                                  #568264
                                                  Paul Hassell
                                                  Participant
                                                    @paulhassell73733

                                                    20210130_103116.jpg20210130_103055.jpgimg-20210130-wa0015.jpg

                                                    #568265
                                                    Paul Hassell
                                                    Participant
                                                      @paulhassell73733

                                                      20210503_155835.jpg

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