Shaper problem

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Shaper problem

This topic has 26 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 14 November 2014 at 17:44 by Rik Shaw.

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7 November 2014 at 17:38 #17543
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
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7 November 2014 at 17:38 #168958
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
I have just acquired an ALBA 1A and am in the process of cleaning it up etc. I have a problem though. Yesterday, for the first time I wound the table sideways toward me until it reached its limit then tried to wind it back. It would not move. I can wind the handle either way but it has no effect, the table remains where it is – stuck.

The only thing I can think of is that the cross slide nut threads have stripped or its location button has sheared of though I am puzzled as I never used any undue force.

Any ideas?

Rik
7 November 2014 at 17:50 #168961
Keith Long
Participant
@keithlong89920
Possible that you've just run the nut off the end of the leadscrew thread. Try pushing the table back by hand as you gently turn the handle to see if you can feel it pick up again.
7 November 2014 at 18:13 #168963
Bob Rodgerson
Participant
@bobrodgerson97362
What Kieth Says. I used to do this regularly with my Myfolrd ML7-R cross slide. A quick push would get the spindle back into the nut and you could move it again.
7 November 2014 at 19:30 #168977
Robbo
Participant
@robbo
Same from me, you've just run off the end of the screw. Wind it back the other way while pushing on the end of the table.

This is also a feature of the Elliott 10M. Wind it fully one way and it just comes to a stop, wind it the other and it comes off the screw – deliberately.
7 November 2014 at 22:38 #168993
IanT
Participant
@iant
I think this is the most likely explanation Rik.

However, a word to owners of other Shaper makes – not all Shapers have this 'feature' – I'm pretty sure my Atlas 7" doesn't for instance – and damage could well result if you 'overdrive' the table.

IanT
7 November 2014 at 23:25 #168999
ronan walsh
Participant
@ronanwalsh98054
Could you not drill the end of the leadscrew and fit a pin into it so it cannot come out of the nut ?
8 November 2014 at 04:43 #169006
GoCreate
Participant
@gocreate
Posted by ronan walsh on 07/11/2014 23:25:45:

Could you not drill the end of the leadscrew and fit a pin into it so it cannot come out of the nut ?

As indicated by Robbo, it's a deliberate feature to prevent damage should the operator allow the table to move past the end of it's stroke on power feed. I frequently set the auto feed on my Elliott and walk away to do something else, a couple of times I have not returned in time before the table reached the end of its stroke, this feature prevented damage to the feed screw etc. it's a good feature to have and keep.

Nigel
8 November 2014 at 04:59 #169007
thaiguzzi
Participant
@thaiguzzi
When you say "towards me" i presume you were standing on the operators side, ie where all the handles and adjustments are. If so, you do in fact have a problem. However, if the table has stopped moving at the other side, like most people replying think you have, then you have no problem and do as instructed in the above posts. Sometimes a dead blow hammer helps, as a shaper table does not move or re-engage as easily as a lathe cross slide.

Mike.
8 November 2014 at 10:15 #169026
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
"When you say "towards me" i presume you were standing on the operators side, ie where all the handles and adjustments are. If so, you do in fact have a problem."

Mike – your presumption is correct and as you rightly point out, I do have a problem. Just to clarify my OP, if I stand in front of the machine facing it, the table is stuck hard over to the right nearest to the winding handle.

Because the machine had been standing idle for many years and despite my attempts at cleaning and lubing, the table was quite tight – but movable – on the cross slide, I have tried pushing it while winding to get it back on the thread but it is far to tight for that.

Next thing I'll try is to loosen the bottom jib and one of the screws on the top jib (the other two are masked by the main casting) and try and give it another push.

While I have been pondering a solution I set the ram going for a little light entertainment and the rotten drive belt snapped !

Do you ever get that feeling that you are being got at?

They say these things happen in three's so just in case I'm wearing an extra pair of underpants.

Rik
8 November 2014 at 10:29 #169029
Yngvar F
Participant
@yngvarf
I also got a Alba 1a a few months ago and have been messing with it since.

(It's not really mine until I've had it in bits.)

No safety features on it. The table comes to a dead stop at the end of travel.

Would be nice to have, should I fall asleep watching.

I'm guessing the lead screw is simply turned down at the end?

Yngvar
8 November 2014 at 14:41 #169056
Robbo
Participant
@robbo
Rik et al,

If you didn't know, there is a manual for the Alba 1A in the Files section on the Metal-Shapers Yahoo Group.

If the table is at the right-hand end, then it has still run off the thread. The difference in ends is that at this end it can't fall off, at the left-hand end it can. So it is probably seized up. Try taking the "box" off to lighten the load and then it is easier to jiggle about. You should se the fixing bolts if you look down the big hole in the box – may need a torch!
9 November 2014 at 05:33 #169091
thaiguzzi
Participant
@thaiguzzi
Then if it's a simple matter of the table coming off the screw, even on the operator's side, it should be able to re-engage by turning the handle and at the same time giving the table a couple of deft wacks with a dead blow hammer. Tables and cross feed mechanisms on all shapers need to be much tighter than on mills or lathes, purely for the ratchet feed mechanism to work properly. Don't ask me how i know…
9 November 2014 at 18:07 #169131
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
UPDATE

I have been working at it for hours today and have fixed it. I removed the table first to lighten things up (thanks Robbo) but only after doing some shopping at the car boot sale this morn where I was lucky enough to pick up a long reach socket extension to get at those three nuts that secure the table to the cross slide.

Once the table was of, I used a long length of 40×150 timber with the end lodged inside the base casting drip tray, (and making an assumption that the nut had come of the end of the threaded portion of the traverse shaft) I started trying to lever and wind the cross slide back onto the traverse shaft thread. Sounds easy? It took several hours and a lot of sweat before I finally got the thing to bite onto the thread and was able to wind the cross slide to the central position.

Now I could see that my assumption had been correct, the cross slide nut HAD dropped of the thread because the shaft had been machined down at the end. When the machine was new this dropping of the end business would not have caused a problem as a good shove would have got the cross slide engaged again. However, this machines cross slide ways are obviously worn enough in the middle to make the cross slide very tight at the extremities as I found to my cost. It was this extreme tightness that made it so difficult to get the nut re-engaged on the thread. Lesson learnt then – avoid ends! (Sound policy methinks as one approaches three score and ten.)

Thanks to all who have responded.

Rik
10 November 2014 at 04:20 #169154
thaiguzzi
Participant
@thaiguzzi
Good to know it's sorted. Next time loosen the gib strip adjustments right off for the table, should make re connection a doddle. Re -adjust tight.. This could not happen on my Boxford, something would break, feeding towards the operator's side. Feeding away from you, it would just run off the screw and stop, as intended by the makers. The majority of shaper work has the table feeding towards you, so you want to be there when the surface has been finish machined, not in the kitchen making a cup of tea.

Regards,

Mike.
10 November 2014 at 09:38 #169167
Robbo
Participant
@robbo
Well got there in the end! I'm sorry to have to tell you that things get worse after you've passed the three score and ten!
10 November 2014 at 09:45 #169168
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
Thanks Mike but as I pointed out in my previous reply to you :

"Next thing I'll try is to loosen the bottom jib and one of the screws on the top jib (the other two are masked by the main casting"

Which I did, it made no difference

Just in passing, I have had my wrist slapped on another site for calling it a jib. My American "corrector" tells me it should be pronounced "gib" with a hard "g" as in gibbon. I know now the correct spelling is gib but all the time I spent in the industry I only ever heard it pronounced "jib" as in "jig".

Rik
10 November 2014 at 10:00 #169174
IanT
Participant
@iant
Must admit Rik, to me a "Jib" is something I'd expect to find on a sailing boat

But I wouldn't lose any sleep about it – I knew what you were talking about and I'm pretty sure so did everyone else here. Of course, I stand to be "Corrected"

Regards,

IanT
10 November 2014 at 11:09 #169183
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
Wiktionary gives both pronunciations. I'd go with 'jib' but apparently one possible origin is from the word 'Gilbert' which suggests a hard 'G'.

Neil
10 November 2014 at 11:45 #169185
OuBallie
Participant
@ouballie
Posted by Robbo on 10/11/2014 09:38:12:

. . . I'm sorry to have to tell you that things get worse after you've passed the three score and ten!

Oh thank you so very very much for that lovely bit of insight

Geoff – I'm just a month passed that point, BUT things appear normal!
10 November 2014 at 17:51 #169221
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
Just as one problem is resolved another comes along. Now I have managed to wind the cross slide over I have been able to remove ALL jib strips and adjusting screws which leaves the cross slide simply hanging on the ways and yet there is still noticeable resistance when the handle is turned. This resistance can only be coming from the feed nut thread not mating up properly with the traverse shaft thread. Wierd!

Tomorrow I'll see if I can get to the nut by removing the cross slide and traverse shaft.

Rik
11 November 2014 at 03:22 #169262
thaiguzzi
Participant
@thaiguzzi
Also pull apart and check the ratchet feed mechanism. Maybe somebody previously has been in there and things are not as they should be. When you've got that far, check the feedscrew end float (Should not be any), taper locating pins and thrust bearings if any.

Mike.
11 November 2014 at 09:58 #169278
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
Thanks Mike – I have doctors this morn but last thing I tried yesterday was to try and dismantle the ratchet end before trying to remove the feed screw. Before I did that I removed the retaining nut and lock nut from the other end of the shaft. The ratchet cog itself has a cross head retaining screw bearing down on the shaft but sometime in the past someone had naffed the screwdriver slot on the head of the screw so the only thing for it was to drill out the screw in situ.

That done I attempted to remove the ratchet from the shaft by engaging the ratchet pin and winding the handle the wrong way. Only with the greatest effort was I able to move the shaft within the bore of the ratchet. Conclusion? It looks like the ratchet has been pressed on. Humbug!

Rik
11 November 2014 at 16:48 #169307
Yngvar F
Participant
@yngvarf
Had to go down and have a look.

The cog is a sliding fit and the rachet rides quite loose on the shaft.

Took a cell phone pic with both removed.

Yngvar

Edited By Yngvar F on 11/11/2014 17:00:19
11 November 2014 at 18:11 #169314
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
Today I managed to remove the traverse shaft which sidestepped the problem of the pressed on ratchet after which it was a simple matter to detach the cross slide and pick up the drive nut where it had dropped of.

After a thorough clean and lube I could see that the drive nut had taken damage over the years at one end of the thread.

I was able to thread the nut onto the shaft from the good end of the nut and all was well until the shaft thread approached the damaged end where it became very tight. I had found the cause of the mystery tightness.

What I really needed now was a bloomin' great acme type tap to clear out the thread in the nut but…..!

As I pondered my next move it suddenly dawned on me that my "tap" was staring me in the face in the form of the threaded shaft itself. With the nut in the vice I dolloped some coarse grinding past on the end of the shaft and with a few turns using the handle on my "tap", lapped the nastiness away. A quick sluice with white spirit and a re-lube and I was able to spin the nut down the shaft with zero resistance. Oh happy, happy day!

Rik

Edited By Rik Shaw on 11/11/2014 18:13:08
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