Facemill and MT2

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Facemill and MT2

This topic has 17 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 9 July 2013 at 14:48 by Ian S C.

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7 July 2010 at 22:43 #53211
Paul Fallert
Participant
@paulfallert28101
My Clausing 8520 mill takes a MT2 arbor.

I have found a source for a namebrand 40mm (1.5″) facemill that takes APKT inserts. These inserts have a high-positive rake. According to some sources, these newer high positive inserts are much less punishing to smaller machines like we have and require much less horsepower to make an equivalent cut.

My question is, with reasonable cuts ( 1 mm depth ), will this be too much radial or side force on the bearings?
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7 July 2010 at 22:43 #16564
Paul Fallert
Participant
@paulfallert28101
Will a 40mm face mill be to much for a MT2?
7 July 2010 at 23:08 #53212
Digger
Participant
@digger
Hi Paul, I suppose you could just try it and see, approach the first cut with caution? if you have the manual for your machine tool it will maybe tell you the maximum size of facemill you should use? My guess is that if you don’t take too deep of a cut and use the right speed and feed rate ,it should be okay.
8 July 2010 at 12:37 #53222
Jeff Dayman
Participant
@jeffdayman43397
If using a face mill having an mt2 shank I would be prepared for it to shake loose if I were you. A flycutter and light cuts would be much safer.

If you ever come across an R8 spindle for you mill I suggest you fit it. They hold tooling far better than mt2 or 3 spindles.

However for drilling and light milling mt is ok. Your mileage may vary.

Just my 2 cents worth.

JD
8 July 2010 at 13:11 #53224
dcosta
Participant
@dcosta
Hello Paul.

I have an Optimum BF20 mill and it accepts MT2 shanks.

In this mill I have used two facemills, cutting 0,20mm deep of cold rolled steel without any

problem.

The facemills I use can be seen here: http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/info_626.html

and here: http://www.industryarea.com/Metal-working-machines-Y918-S56-catalogue.html identifiable by the reference 335 0212 and the price 189.00.

Just my experience

Dias Costa
8 July 2010 at 22:16 #53230
Paul Fallert
Participant
@paulfallert28101
Thanks for the replies.

With a drawbar arbor, it sounds like it will work. I am interested in seeing the APKT double positive inserts (radial and axial).

Anyone have experience with APKT inserts?

Paul
9 July 2010 at 11:43 #53240
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Jejj, it shouldn’t ‘shake lose’ , it’s held in by a draw bar. the tools that worry me are the end mils with a morse taper, with a tang on the end and no provision for a draw bar, reminds me of when I first got my mill, and not knowing anything about milling I put an end mill in the Jacobs chuck and started work, shortly after the chuck fell out. I did some enquiries, and bought a collet chuck, no more problems. Ian S C
23 August 2010 at 19:25 #54638
RJKflyer
Participant
@rjkflyer
I’ve been using a 2.5″ 4-insert facemill on my Wabeco 1200E mill which has a 10mm drawbar MT2. I thought, initially, that this would be far too much of an ask for a smallish benchtop machine.

I changed the inserts from the cheap ones it came with (the whole thing was about GBP30) to some top quality ones from MSCJ&L, and it’s been brilliant.

Used it to mill some 2″ round steel square, and the finish is very good. On ali it will turn out almost a mirror finish with the new inserts – really surprising quality.
23 August 2010 at 21:55 #54647
Paul Fallert
Participant
@paulfallert28101
RJKflyer:

Thank you for your posting.

May I ask,

which insert did you purchase? Example: APKT, TPG, TNMG

Paul
24 August 2010 at 07:58 #54658
RJKflyer
Participant
@rjkflyer
Hi Paul,

Yes, good question: i should have mentioned that i DID change the type. They were TPUN but I chose to use TPMR instead. The only significant letter there is the N to R change, and that’s the addition of a chipbreaker. So, it has a small ‘lip’ on the cutting face as opposed to being flat.

I’m no expert at all – first time I have ever used a facemill – but the difference in finish quality was clear.

I bought the actual facemill from RGD, ref 629, and the replacement inserts from MSCJ&L. Latter were TPMR160312 HC335 Hertel, catalogue HCX-41654B.

cheers

Richard
8 July 2013 at 14:20 #124110
Paul Fallert
Participant
@paulfallert28101
Success! I finally tested this 40mm APKT mill. I first had to make a MT2 shell mill holder with threaded drawbar (a long story for another posting). The 40mm, 4-flute, APKT major brand face mill was designed to be mounted on a 19mm shell mill holder with two driving lugs.

Conditions: BMS. 1mm depth of cut. 6mm width of cut at 600 rpm. For pacing the feed I counted at 1 turn of the handwheel in six seconds. The handwheel is marked with .100" per turn, so my maths put that at 1" per minute, (25mm per minute) which seemed very slow and difficult to maintain The work was to the front of the spindle, moving left to right. The spindle with facemill was behind the work cutting conventionally and the chips flying away from me.

Not knowing how best to proceed, I approached this test as if this were a HSS 4-flute endmill, right down to the width and depth of cut, sans cutting oil (I am not prepared to use coolant in a domestic setting).

The chips were small "c" shape and 1.5mm diameter, bright silver color. But, the chips sprayed horizontally, even into my toolbox one meter distant. I will have to set up a chip barrier to avoid this "chips ahoy".

The finish was good, but there was too much hammering for my sensibilities, which no doubt reflects on my inability to know how to use this carbide facemill. (I did try 900 rpm and double the feed, but the noise/hammering was louder). Hard to measure without a Db meter.

Does anyone know how best to use a positive-rake carbide facemill? All suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

Paul
8 July 2013 at 15:12 #124113
Anonymous
Let's look at some numbers. A 40mm (1.57&quot face mill running at 600rpm gives a surface speed of 247sfm; in the right ballpark for carbide and BMS.

At 600rpm with a 4 flute cutter a feedrate of 1"/min gives a chip load per insert of 0.4 thou. That's way too low. The inserts will be rubbing rather than cutting. Therein lies the noise problem I suspect. I'd run at a load per insert of 3-4 thou.

A width of cut of 6mm times depth of cut of 1mm times 25mm/min gives a metal removal rate of 150mm^3/min, or 0.01 inches cubed per minute. That's very low; as a rule of thumb 1hp at the cutter should be able to remove 1 cubic inch per minute in BMS.

To start with I'd suggest upping the feedrate by at least a factor of five, then increase the width of cut to nearly the cutter diameter, and then try increasing the depth of cut, depending on how much horsepower you have available. I'd expect the chips to be coming off a deep blue or purple colour.

Regards,

Andrew
8 July 2013 at 18:46 #124126
Paul Fallert
Participant
@paulfallert28101
Andrew:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

In your opinion, should I be using a different style of face mill?

Example: In MEW #139, Mike Haughton seems to prefer a face mill cutter with a square or octagonal positive insert (Diagram #11) and Photo 1 (the middle one).

Paul
8 July 2013 at 19:05 #124128
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
The three tools in photo one are negative rake not positive, commonly sold as "little Hoggers" they work quite well though I prefere them for Iron than steel, this is the round one in action.

J

Edited By JasonB on 08/07/2013 19:05:40

Edited By JasonB on 08/07/2013 19:06:07
8 July 2013 at 19:41 #124130
mechman48
Participant
@mechman48
Paul

I second Dias Costa's face mill..RDG item ref 626 2MT 2" face mill. This is the one I have & use for most of the face milling I have done, & with the supplied carbide tips. As I don't have power feed on my WM 16 (2MT) I tend to look, listen & feel how the cutter is performing by hand feed, if it isn't shaking the machine to buggery & not squealing like a stuck pig, I carry on. I have had it cutting Aluminium, Brass, & CI with a d.o.c of 1mm (0.0397" if it floats your boat) quite succesfully as long as I am looking, listening & feeling what the machine is doing, & I alter the feed /speed accordingly. On black cold rolled MS & BMS I've cut quite happily with up to .5 / .6mm (.020" / .025".with chips flying off & 'HOT' (had a couple find their way down the front of my t shirt..'ouch&#39 I carry on.

George
8 July 2013 at 19:48 #124131
mechman48
Participant
@mechman48
ps.. pic' of my cutter after machining CI with a .5mm cut IIRC

I reset the set up after I had given the machine a good clean down after machining as forgetting to take pic for record purposes.

George

Edited By mechman48 on 08/07/2013 20:03:41
8 July 2013 at 20:20 #124134
Anonymous
Paul: I see no reason why your face mill shouldn't work satisfactorily with APKT inserts, provided the inserts are proper branded items. The shape of the insert is largely dictated by the work being done. If you don't need to get into a corner then octagonal or round inserts might be a bit more robust and have more usable edges, but I doubt it'll make much difference on the smaller machine.

If you get the speeds and feeds right then your facemill should sing along. As alluded to by George when things are going well the chips come off hot. Hot as in it really hurts if you get one down the shirt, and they leave burn marks.

Up the feedrate and see what happens.

Regards,

Andrew
9 July 2013 at 14:48 #124165
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
When In first got my face cutter, i was supplied whit inserts with chip breakers, but later when getting new inserts, the salesman(also a machinest)told me under no circumstaces should I use the inserts I started with, the non chip breaker inserts have a stronger edge, and withstand intermitant cutting better, the inserts I'd started with were lathe tool tips, but the new ones work ok in the lathe, After they have had their life in the milling machine, they get reground, and used in the lathe. This is a new 16mm tip in a home made holder, the top edge is actually just a fraction negative. Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 09/07/2013 14:56:38
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