cutting spur gears on a mill

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cutting spur gears on a mill

Home Forums Workshop Techniques cutting spur gears on a mill

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  • #16309
    brian jones 11
    Participant
      @brianjones11

      a rogue method?

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      #558939
      brian jones 11
      Participant
        @brianjones11

        I have seen vids of using diving head for use with a milling form tool for cutting a spur gear say 3" dia, 1/4" thick with say 80 teeth

        OMG what a painfully slow process as you mill each one

        Yes there are powered head linked to spindle to cut these also – v expensive attachment

        Now I was looking at some large bsw plugs taps i have and wondered if these might work

        Then I saw a vid on making worm gears using this method, where the blank is mounted freely rotating on a mandrel. The rotating tap held in a lathe chuck and the blank is brought crossways to meet the tap. The action of the tap screws the blank around as it cuts and you end up with a worm gear which can be operated by a bolt

        Now I can see the FES going nuclear on thiscool

        Yet I have not found a vid on using this technique for a spur gear

        Consider a 3/4" bsw x 10 tap on a 3" x 1/4" thick blank gives ca 100 teeth

        So the tap is mounted in the spindle and the blank on a horizontal mandrel

        First pass will get the thread depth, then the bed will be slid across on the x axis to get a flat bottom for the tooth form (I think)

        Primitive but very quick and only suitable for light load low speed apps and probably noisy

        put them in a gearbox with heavy oil and used nylons or sawdust

        Anyone ever tried this

        Seems too good to be true

        #558942
        speelwerk
        Participant
          @speelwerk

          Why spending time on making if you can buy them for little money, plenty of suppliers, see **LINK** Niko.

          #558947
          brian jones 11
          Participant
            @brianjones11

            followed up on Madler website, very comprehensive, BUT I cannot see how to buy anything, no on line shopping cart or any hint of a sales facility

            I am lost here pls advise

            #558948
            John Haine
            Participant
              @johnhaine32865

              See **LINK**

              Also several threads on this site about variations of the process including what you describe, also known as free hobbing.

              #558952
              John P
              Participant
                @johnp77052

                Posted by brian jones 11 19/08/2021 12:05:43

                "Seems too good to be true"

                That's probably because it is ,the way forward is for you to give it a try
                and let us all know how you get on.

                Most good engineering requires some commitment in time and inevitably
                some cost for tooling .
                Here is a photo of some spur gear hobbing ,i can tell you where you can
                get all of the items needed to do this , some of the links will
                be taken down almost instantly by the North Koreans so if you want to
                know you will have to send a PM.

                John myford change wheel .jpg

                #558953
                speelwerk
                Participant
                  @speelwerk
                  Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 12:37:45:

                  followed up on Madler website, very comprehensive, BUT I cannot see how to buy anything, no on line shopping cart or any hint of a sales facility

                  I am lost here pls advise

                  You select Branche Offices at the top of the page, find the UK distributor and contact them. Niko.

                  Great Britain

                  Huco Engineering Ltd.
                  5-7 Merchant Drive
                  GB-SG13 7BL Hertford
                  Tel.: +44 (0) 1992 50 19 00
                  Fax: +44 (0) 1992 50 98 90
                  sales@huco.com
                  **LINK**

                  #558968
                  Anonymous
                    Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 12:05:43:

                    Seems too good to be true

                    The method mentioned works fine for cutting worm wheels, although spiral flute taps are helpful:

                    hobbing worm wheel me.jpg

                    Getting the correct number of teeth is a bit hit and miss. One can free hob a worm wheel, but it needs to be pre-gashed:

                    worm wheel hobbing.jpg

                    For spur gears it's a useless method. First, the work would need to be swivelled to the helix angle of the tap in order to get straight teeth on the gear. Second, the work would need to be rotated at the appropriate rate, same as when using a hob. Third, the tooth form would be non-standard, and the gear would only work with other gears made by the same tap.

                    It doesn't take that long to cut spur gears by conventional methods, provide one gets on with it rather than pontificating on forums, two gears at a time in this case:

                    5DP Pinion Gears

                    If I want a quick gear, and don't have the appropriate cutter, I simply design it in 3D CAD and let the 4-axis CNC mill get on with it. As was the pinion:

                    pinion 21 teeth 20pa.jpg

                    For mating with this internal gear:

                    internal gear and pinion.jpg

                    Andrew

                    #558973
                    John Haine
                    Participant
                      @johnhaine32865
                      Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/08/2021 14:44:11:

                      Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 12:05:43:

                      Seems too good to be true

                      ……..

                      For spur gears it's a useless method. First, the work would need to be swivelled to the helix angle of the tap in order to get straight teeth on the gear. Second, the work would need to be rotated at the appropriate rate, same as when using a hob. Third, the tooth form would be non-standard, and the gear would only work with other gears made by the same tap.

                      Andrew

                      For larger tooth counts the tooth form will surely be involute as the tap is in effect a rack form cutter? But indeed the pitches will not mesh with other "standard" gears. A 10 tpi tap as the OP suggested would cut teeth of ~31.15 DP which isn't any kind of standard, and pressure angle 27.5*.

                      #558978
                      brian jones 11
                      Participant
                        @brianjones11
                        Posted by speelwerk on 19/08/2021 12:52:46:

                        Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 12:37:45:

                        followed up on Madler website, very comprehensive, BUT I cannot see how to buy anything, no on line shopping cart or any hint of a sales facility

                        I am lost here pls advise

                        You select Branche Offices at the top of the page, find the UK distributor and contact them. Niko.

                        Great Britain

                        Huco Engineering Ltd.
                        5-7 Merchant Drive
                        GB-SG13 7BL Hertford
                        Tel.: +44 (0) 1992 50 19 00
                        Fax: +44 (0) 1992 50 98 90
                        sales@huco.com
                        **LINK**

                        I did this already but it just takes me back to the inert Madler website

                        try the link yourself

                        #558982
                        JasonB
                        Moderator
                          @jasonb

                          I feel like giving up sometimes, why not just got to the web address for Huco that is in Speelworks posted image, then go to products and then gears which give you this. Do you need more help getting to a specific type of gear?

                          Personally I find the ones from Belting online very reasonable, MOD are cheaper than DP.

                          #558984
                          brian jones 11
                          Participant
                            @brianjones11

                            Well I shall try out this free hobbing method

                            I agree the gears will only mesh with others produced by the same tap

                            but it will be interesting to see how two such gears perform together and if they would suffice for light duty

                            dont you think

                            and BTW I belong to the school of thinking first and asking around before making chips, unlike the suck it and see brigade.

                            quote

                            It doesn't take that long to cut spur gears by conventional methods, provide one gets on with it rather than pontificating on forums

                            as per AJ with his superior minded 4 axis CNC machine

                            Obviously forgotten how long it does take to cut spur gear – the point of my original post = as they used to say "read the question carefully first, dont give an answer you would like to be asked."

                            I was just thinking out of the box

                            #558993
                            brian jones 11
                            Participant
                              @brianjones11
                              Posted by JasonB on 19/08/2021 16:28:21:

                              I feel like giving up sometimes, why not just got to the web address for Huco that is in Speelworks posted image, then go to products and then gears which give you this. Do you need more help getting to a specific type of gear?

                              Personally I find the ones from Belting online very reasonable, MOD are cheaper than DP.

                              Its not helpful to throw a hissy fit, I did this already

                              this is the link from the pic above

                              http://www.maedler.co.uk/

                              try it yourself, for me it just leads to a dead end back to germany

                              being given a dead link is very frustrating and wastes a lot of time

                              you found your link by doing a separate search for Huco

                              #558997
                              Dave Halford
                              Participant
                                @davehalford22513
                                Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 16:37:38:

                                Well I shall try out this free hobbing method

                                I agree the gears will only mesh with others produced by the same tap

                                but it will be interesting to see how two such gears perform together and if they would suffice for light duty

                                dont you think

                                and BTW I belong to the school of thinking first and asking around before making chips, unlike the suck it and see brigade.

                                quote

                                It doesn't take that long to cut spur gears by conventional methods, provide one gets on with it rather than pontificating on forums

                                as per AJ with his superior minded 4 axis CNC machine

                                Obviously forgotten how long it does take to cut spur gear – the point of my original post = as they used to say "read the question carefully first, dont give an answer you would like to be asked."

                                I was just thinking out of the box

                                There's a thread on here where someone free hobbed with a tap, if I remember correctly the tooth count was wrong (as in fractional teeth) till the blank was much smaller than required.

                                #558999
                                not done it yet
                                Participant
                                  @notdoneityet

                                  try it yourself, for me it just leads to a dead end back to germany

                                  There is a phone number quite clearly indicated and easily called. Why not call it? Seems a simple enough way to get sorted? A lot of people seem to miss the simple options to sort out a problem.

                                  #559001
                                  JasonB
                                  Moderator
                                    @jasonb
                                    Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 17:42:10:

                                     

                                    I feel like giving up sometimes, why not just got to the web address for Huco that is in Speelworks posted image, then go to products and then gears which give you this. Do you need more help getting to a specific type of gear…………….

                                    ………………….you found your link by doing a separate search for Huco

                                     

                                    No as I said it's in the image Speelwork posted, You have even highlighted what I said in your quote!

                                    "why not just got to the web address for Huco that is in Speelworks posted image" NOT LINK

                                    I've highlighted it for you, can't really make it any clearer.

                                    hucp.jpg

                                     

                                    Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2021 18:42:40

                                    #559022
                                    speelwerk
                                    Participant
                                      @speelwerk
                                      Posted by JasonB on 19/08/2021 18:19:27:

                                      Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 17:42:10:

                                      I feel like giving up sometimes, why not just got to the web address for Huco that is in Speelworks posted image, then go to products and then gears which give you this. Do you need more help getting to a specific type of gear…………….

                                      ………………….you found your link by doing a separate search for Huco

                                      No as I said it's in the image Speelwork posted, You have even highlighted what I said in your quote!

                                      "why not just got to the web address for Huco that is in Speelworks posted image" NOT LINK

                                      I've highlighted it for you, can't really make it any clearer.

                                      hucp.jpg

                                      Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2021 18:42:40

                                      I ordered from Madler Germany directly or from their Dutch branche Koppe, for little money they even made it to your spefication, all very friendly and helpfull, just phone or mail them. Do not know of course about Huco but expect them to be the same. Niko.

                                      #559024
                                      Phil super7
                                      Participant
                                        @philsuper7

                                        I Recall this method of using a tap to cut a worm wheel was used in an article in MEW some time ago, The article was precise angle adjustment of the table on the Worden T&C Grinder I tried it out worked beautifully.

                                        Edited By JasonB on 19/08/2021 20:47:10

                                        #559027
                                        Andy Stopford
                                        Participant
                                          @andystopford50521
                                          Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 12:05:43:

                                          OMG what a painfully slow process as you mill each one

                                          Not really. It depends what machine you have, and what material you're using, but if you use a proper gear cutter I wouldn't say it was painfully slow, and a lot easier than trying to jury-rig something with a tap.

                                          Home-made single tooth cutters are slow and tiresome, but work if you don't want to fork out for a proper gear cutter.

                                          Another approach if you don't have a mill is to use a single-tooth cutter in the lathe toolpost, shaper-wise. That really would be painful, but again, you'd get there in the end (I haven't tried that one myself, but I don't see why it shouldn't work given sufficient patience).

                                          I have made gears using a proper shaper and a home-made cutter. It works fine, but it's very easy to forget to wind the toolholder back up before indexing to the next tooth. Result – a loud bang as the shaper punches out the entire tooth* in one go, but, surprisingly no discernible difference in tooth quality, at least with benign materials like nylon or bronze. Best avoided though I think.

                                          *Really the gap between teeth of course

                                          #559029
                                          Anonymous
                                            Posted by John Haine on 19/08/2021 15:40:43:

                                            For larger tooth counts the tooth form will surely be involute as the tap is in effect a rack form cutter?

                                            Fair point. The teeth on the worm wheel I free hobbed with a tap look triangular. But the wheel is quite small (~1/2" diameter) so any involute curvature will be also be small. The tap was UNF so the pressure angle will be 30°. Since the tap form is triangular the gear teeth will tend to a triangle rather than the more familiar rack form. No doubt gears made by the same method will run together but there will be significant forces pushing them apart.

                                            The small worm wheel shown is for a speed adjuster on a Pickering governor, so I doubt it'll ever get turned:

                                            governor with worms.jpg

                                            Andrew

                                            #559033
                                            Anonymous
                                              Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 16:37:38:
                                              I belong to the school of thinking first and asking around before making chips………

                                              Unfortunately you seem to have mislaid the first step. If the tap is skewed by the helix angle to get straight teeth on the gear how does it drive the gear blank as there will be no tangential force. The tap drives a worm wheel because it creates teeth that are not straight and hence there is a force causing the blank to rotate.

                                              Andrew

                                              #559042
                                              Martin Connelly
                                              Participant
                                                @martinconnelly55370

                                                The spiral path goes along the rotating tap regardless of the angle so there will be a pressure on the blank from the tap whether angled or not.

                                                Martin C

                                                #559044
                                                Martin Kyte
                                                Participant
                                                  @martinkyte99762
                                                  Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/08/2021 21:32:47:

                                                  Posted by brian jones 11 on 19/08/2021 16:37:38:
                                                  I belong to the school of thinking first and asking around before making chips………

                                                  Unfortunately you seem to have mislaid the first step. If the tap is skewed by the helix angle to get straight teeth on the gear how does it drive the gear blank as there will be no tangential force. The tap drives a worm wheel because it creates teeth that are not straight and hence there is a force causing the blank to rotate.

                                                  Andrew

                                                  Not sure I see that Andrew. My headstock dividing attachment is a worm gear (which is the same form as a tap without the flutes but also with involute instead of straight flanks) driving the bull wheel on the lathe spindle. It is cranked over at the helix angle of the worm and it certainly drives the spindle. It's a poor mans worm gear as it has only line engagement but it's only called on to do light duty. In the free hobbing of straight spur gears the hob/tap is as you say set over at the helix angle but the gear has to be gashed first in order to be driven. The hob/tap then just modifies the tooth form. Well thats how I see it anyway. I've only ever done it to produce curved knurling wheels.

                                                  regards Martin

                                                  #559045
                                                  Nathan Sharpe
                                                  Participant
                                                    @nathansharpe19746

                                                    Please all excuse my lack of knowledge in this subject.

                                                    I'll address my question to Andrew J.

                                                    If I were to use the same tap to cut a number of gears with varying diameter with the same tap would they mesh or would they not?

                                                    If I were to introduce a "worm" of same thread between gears would I be able to build a gear train to increase/decrease speed?

                                                    I've never cut a gear in my life so have no idea, would like to know where to start If I wish to!

                                                    Nathan.

                                                    I should have said "mesh on their outer edges. Sorry.

                                                    Second edit repeated myself in para 1.

                                                    Edited By Nathan Sharpe on 19/08/2021 22:44:19

                                                    #559077
                                                    Anonymous
                                                      Posted by Martin Connelly on 19/08/2021 22:16:26:

                                                      The spiral path goes along the rotating tap regardless of the angle so there will be a pressure on the blank from the tap whether angled or not.

                                                      Ooops, I think you're correct. embarrassed

                                                      However, that raises a question; if the tap/hob can drive the work why do hobbing machines go to the trouble of actively driving the gear blank?

                                                      Andrew

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