Case Hardening

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Case Hardening

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  • #440263
    ChrisB
    Participant
      @chrisb35596

      Hello, I have some parts made out of mild steel which I would like to surface harden just to avoid nicks and dents in them in general workshop handling and to attain some wear resistance.

      I have done some reading on the subject but I would like some advice before I attempt anything.

      I understand that I will have to heat the parts to a high temperature in a carbon rich material. I have read about Kasenit for carburizing material but I wouldn't know where to find that or something similar locally. I have some fine graphite powder (like talc) was wondering if it would make for a good case hardening material.

      Chris

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      #16119
      ChrisB
      Participant
        @chrisb35596
        #440265
        Clive Hartland
        Participant
          @clivehartland94829

          Chris,Make your own mixture by chopping up an old leather shoe and some charcoal. Place in a metal box and get it hot and soak for a while and then tip staright into some salty water. You will get some discoloration. but it will be surface hard. No doubt others will come in with ideas. Kasenit is good if you can find some.

          #440268
          ChrisB
          Participant
            @chrisb35596

            Hi Clive thanks for the tip. By charcoal, would the bbq type do? And regarding heat, how hot should one go, does it need to be red?

            #440282
            JohnF
            Participant
              @johnf59703

              Chris, Kasenit has long gone but there are some other alternative compounds available form some of our usual suppliers if you dig around.

              However it depends on what you want to harden, how big, how many, how thick a case to do you want/need ? If you want to go ahead and without getting into too much detail you need a suitable heat source that can sustain the temperature at 750 deg C for a lengthy period – a small furnace is best. A container to pack the work in, an old tin will work but a thicker walled one is better, you need to be able to seal the top while its "cooking"

              Yes BBQ charcoal will work but better if you can get bone charcoal or as Clive suggests some leather charcoal or mix of both. Carbon penetration is generally assumed to be 3-5 thou per hour depending on the compound and temperature.

              If your items are small and you go for the kasenit type compound you can use a large gas torch and a makeshift hearth, the case is thin but will offer a fair degree of wear resistance and protection from dings.

              Hope this helps a little

              John

              For the kasenit process holding it at red hart for several minutes will do the job, the longer the better but 2 or 3 mins will usually suffice 

              Edited By JohnF on 04/12/2019 20:15:59

              #440290
              roy entwistle
              Participant
                @royentwistle24699

                Chris I think Blackgates sell a case hardening compound

                Roy

                #440297
                Bob Stevenson
                Participant
                  @bobstevenson13909

                  Early American firearms such as the Sharps rifles have mottled colour patterns due to their being case hardened using bonemeal….the parts were packed in the bonemeal, leaving no air spaces, inside iron tubes and brought to red heat.

                  #440298
                  Lainchy
                  Participant
                    @lainchy

                    I've just bought some Beta Case Hardening compound from EKP supplies on eBay. Has anyone used this?

                    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Case-Hardening-Powder-250g-Model-engineering-metal-working-Quality-UK-Product/332822906445?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

                    I've not used it yet, and like you, I've not done this before. I have purchased a MAP gas torch and bottle to use…and still need to get some refractory bricks. Well, that's my plan anyway.

                    Ian

                    #440313
                    Mark Rand
                    Participant
                      @markrand96270

                      Blackgates, EKP and a number of others sell case hardening compounds. They are probably all a mixture of ground charcoal, sodium ferrocyanide and barium carbonate. Which is pretty much what Kasenit was. Quicker than pack carburizing and they produce a good case.

                      #440314
                      John Reese
                      Participant
                        @johnreese12848

                        Case hardening is a time sensitive process. The longer you hold the part at temperature during case hardening the deeper the case will be. The compounds like Kasenit or Cherry Red will give a very shallow case due the short time the metal is exposed to the compound.

                        #440318
                        jimmy b
                        Participant
                          @jimmyb

                          I have very good results with that same stuff from ebay.

                          I really wouldn't bother making my own!

                          Jim

                          #440321
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb
                            Posted by John Reese on 05/12/2019 03:26:24:

                            Case hardening is a time sensitive process. The longer you hold the part at temperature during case hardening the deeper the case will be. The compounds like Kasenit or Cherry Red will give a very shallow case due the short time the metal is exposed to the compound.

                            This is why you repeat the process several times to get a deeper case if needed, each time it takes in more carbon.

                            Not sure if case hardening will offer much protection against dings and dents but will stop the item being scratched so easily.

                            #440325
                            ChrisB
                            Participant
                              @chrisb35596

                              Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated. First thing I'm going to need is to get a proper gas torch and some fire bricks, think those will help concentrate the heat better as the parts are quite thick at 2 inches.

                              #440335
                              Simon Williams 3
                              Participant
                                @simonwilliams3

                                Good morning all,

                                Not sure case hardening is really about absorbing carbon into the surface layer of the parent at all. My understanding is that it is actually a nitriding process, which is why you don't need to quench the treated part to get a hard finish layer. Or do you need the carbon to capture the nitrogen into solution?

                                So bone meal has nitrogen in it, as does anything cyanide flavoured, but simple barbecue charcoal isn't (I think) going to do the whole chemical/metallurgical/structural alteration.

                                Any metallurgists?

                                Best rgds to all

                                Simon

                                #440342
                                Journeyman
                                Participant
                                  @journeyman

                                  Wikipedia has a reasonable description of the case-hardening process and mentions in passing the similar processes of nitriding and boriding amongst other similar surface treatments for low carbon steels.

                                  John

                                  #440353
                                  JasonB
                                  Moderator
                                    @jasonb

                                    I've always quenched after case hardening, does not do anything if you don't as it is just a higher carbon steel layer on the outside so needs to be hardened by heating and quenching just like any other high carbon steel. The instructions I have for my Beta powder also say to quench.

                                    I was always told to heat, then place in powder, reheat and finally quench. No need to temper as the soft core means the part is not brittle.

                                     

                                     

                                    Edited By JasonB on 05/12/2019 12:09:36

                                    #440358
                                    Gary Wooding
                                    Participant
                                      @garywooding25363

                                      My dad was a master weighing machine maker and repairer. Weighing machines have steel knife-edge bearings that rotate on either hardened steel or agate V-blocks. He mostly used agates.

                                      He would use cast steel blanks and file them to the required sized knife-edge before hardening them. This was an apparently primitive process where he would hold the bearing with spring pliers, knife-edge down and horizontal, in the flame of a Bunsen burner, until it was red hot. He then dipped it in Kasenit, shovelled are little more onto the edge, and returned it to the flame to get it red hot again. This was repeated 2 or 3 times when he then plunged it into cold water and stirred it around until cold. When tested with a file it was always glass hard, and lasted many years in service.

                                      #440361
                                      Ron Laden
                                      Participant
                                        @ronladen17547

                                        I know nothing on this subject but what is the difference in the end product between case hardening using a carbon compound or quenching in oil which I believe is another method of hardening..?

                                        #440365
                                        JasonB
                                        Moderator
                                          @jasonb

                                          Ron, quenching in oil (or brine or water) will only harden a metal if it has a high enough carbon content such as silver steel or gauge plate. If you did it with normal EN1A or EN3 then it would do nothing except make the part dirty.

                                          Case hardening increases the carbon content of the metals surface which can then be hardened but it is only the surface so ideal for wear surfaces and as the core will retain the properties of the original metal it will have been easier to machine and won't be as brittle as a fully hardened item. Once you have increased the carbon content then you heat and quench as you would the higher carbon steels so oil, brine or water will all work

                                          #440367
                                          Ron Laden
                                          Participant
                                            @ronladen17547

                                            Ah I see, thanks Jason.

                                            #440379
                                            ChrisB
                                            Participant
                                              @chrisb35596

                                              So are there two methods for case hardening? If I understood correctly some are saying to heat the part enclosed and let it soak, and then there is another process where I heat the part and dip it in case hardening material multiple times and then quench. Is this right?

                                              #440394
                                              Anonymous

                                                Nitriding is all about forming nitrides. Nitrogen is quite soluble in iron, and iron nitrides give better corrosion resistance with modest increase in hardness. But they decompose at fairly low temperatures. Other metals such as aluminium, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium and tungsten form nitrides that are very hard and much more temperature resistant. Some of these metals are present in small amounts in nitriding steels, such as the EN4x series.

                                                So, while nitrogen may well be absorbed during case hardening of unalloyed low carbon steel it will not do much for surface hardness.

                                                Andrew

                                                #440403
                                                Michael Gilligan
                                                Participant
                                                  @michaelgilligan61133

                                                  That’s interesting, thanks Andrew yes

                                                  MichaelG.

                                                  .

                                                  Incidentally: It’s too many years ago for me to remember what material was used, but I recall when I worked at Kodak we had a batch of small steel levers [camera mechanisms for the use of] which failed rather dramatically at a 90° bend … it turned out that the nitride hardening had penetrated into micro-cracks in the bend and formed ‘textbook’ stress-raisers.

                                                  #440405
                                                  Howard Lewis
                                                  Participant
                                                    @howardlewis46836

                                                    My understanding of casehardening has always been that by heating a low carbon steel in a carbon rich environment, the carbon is absorbed into the surface of the steel. Thus, locally, the metal becomes a steel with a higher carbon content, and so capable of being heat treated to harden it.

                                                    Salt baths used for case hardening are often Cyanide based..

                                                    Nitriding is a process where the steel is heated in a Nitrogen rich environment, such as Ammonia, or a Nitrogen rich compound. This does harden the steel, and also improves its fatigue resistance; hence its use for crankshafts, and other components subjected to fluctuating loads.

                                                    Tufftriding is a salt bath version of Nitriding, and, again, is popular for Crankshafts.

                                                    What is important is remove the compound layer, which is EXTREMELY hard, but very friable.; I have seen it crumble off a crankshaft almost like grit.. If the compound layer is not removed, this will result in surface degrading in an exponential fashion, which does nothing for the shaft or the bearings in which it runs.

                                                    In all cases, the depth of case is determined by the time of exposure. Crankshafts were Nitrided for twenty or sixty hours, depending upon the use to which the engine was going to be put.

                                                    Howard

                                                    #440501
                                                    ChrisB
                                                    Participant
                                                      @chrisb35596

                                                      Is it better to drill and tap in the part to be case hardened before or after? I would prefer not to break any taps in the hardened material, but on the other hand I don't know if case hardening the threads is wise..

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