Cracking a bolt

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Cracking a bolt

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Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 27 total)
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  • #16118
    Danny M2Z
    Participant
      @dannym2z
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      #439759
      Danny M2Z
      Participant
        @dannym2z

        While playing with my new digital torque wrench I realised that trying to measure the undo torque of a previously installed bolt was a waste of time in many cases as the bolt suddenly lets go with an audible crack.

        I am sure that I am not the first person to have noticed that bolts that have been installed (usually during manufacture) are reluctant to let go and when they do it is often with a 'crack'.

        Inspection usually reveals no trace of thread sealant but I did notice that often the bolt is steel and the body is an aluminium alloy such as an engine cylinder head.

        So why do we have to crack a bolt ?

        * Danny M *

        #439762
        I.M. OUTAHERE
        Participant
          @i-m-outahere

          Microscopic galling on the thread surfaces and between the bolt head and parent metal ?

          #439763
          James Winkler
          Participant
            @jameswinkler82970

            I have noted that it occurs if a black-oxide steel alloy screw has been installed for awhile. I seem to remember that tightening then quickly removing a steel alloy screw from aluminium alloy threads does not have nearly the break-free torque. Maybe the steel removes the aluminium oxide which reforms after awhile? There is a characteristic "smoke" and odour when the screw / bolt breaks free.

            #439772
            bill ellis
            Participant
              @billellis45274

              Electrolytic (galvanic) corrosion caused by two dissimilar metals being in close contact. Basically one becomes the anode & one the cathode, the anode gets eaten causing the deposit which sticks the bolt in the hole.

              #439777
              John MC
              Participant
                @johnmc39344

                Overcoming the static friction?

                #439783
                roy entwistle
                Participant
                  @royentwistle24699

                  Cylinder head bolts are usually in tension, they stretch which is why you don't use them again

                  Roy

                  #439784
                  roy entwistle
                  Participant
                    @royentwistle24699

                    Cylinder head bolts are usually in tension, they stretch which is why you don't use them again

                    Roy

                    #439791
                    Michael Gilligan
                    Participant
                      @michaelgilligan61133

                      Zinc Chromate paste [Duralac for example] is very effective.

                      [ see post by bill ellis ]

                      MichaelG.

                      Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/12/2019 09:32:08

                      #439798
                      Nick Wheeler
                      Participant
                        @nickwheeler
                        Posted by roy entwistle on 02/12/2019 09:07:13:

                        Cylinder head bolts are usually in tension, they stretch which is why you don't use them again

                        Roy

                        ALL bolts are in tension and stretch; that's how they work! Really critical bolts – con rod bolts for example – are tightened by measuring how much they have stretched

                        You're thinking of torque-to-yield bolts, that are deliberately tightened to near their failure point which means they shouldn't be reused.

                        #439810
                        ChrisB
                        Participant
                          @chrisb35596

                          If not referring to cylinder head bolts only, I wouldn't say all bolts are in tension.

                          #439811
                          Mick B1
                          Participant
                            @mickb1
                            Posted by ChrisB on 02/12/2019 12:14:34:

                            If not referring to cylinder head bolts only, I wouldn't say all bolts are in tension.

                            Why not? Seems to me that tightening a nut is trying to draw the bolt through the hole, and tightening a bolt into a static thread is trying to force the head in. The only thing that stops it unwinding from its own elastic tension is the frictional force between the thread flanks that is augmented by that tension to exceed the rotational vector derived from the helix angle.

                            So I'd think that any bolt that's in tight enough to resist vibration is in tension. Even if it's loose and the nut's just hanging on the thread, it's in slight tension – come to that its own weight can put it in tension.

                            #439812
                            Mick Dobson
                            Participant
                              @mickdobson

                              Of course all bolts are in tension, once torque is being developed, whether special cylinder head bolts or otherwise.

                              The thread pitch derives a longitudinal force as a result of the torque applied. Lubrication and surface coating will also affect the friction, so the same torque on an oiled thread will give a larger tension than on a dry thread.

                              As mentioned by Nicholas, that is how fasteners work

                              #439814
                              ChrisB
                              Participant
                                @chrisb35596

                                Well I have seen cases where bolts are used in shear. The bolt is retained by a castle nut which is tightened just for the purpose of not falling off and secured by a cotterpin or tab washer. All the load the bolt carries is in shear not tension in these cases I mention.

                                #439815
                                Michael Gilligan
                                Participant
                                  @michaelgilligan61133
                                  Posted by ChrisB on 02/12/2019 12:47:46:

                                  Well I have seen cases where bolts are used in shear. The bolt is retained by a castle nut which is tightened just for the purpose of not falling off and secured by a cotterpin or tab washer. All the load the bolt carries is in shear not tension in these cases I mention.

                                  .

                                  With the greatest respect, Chris … That seems a very inefficient way to use a bolt

                                  It is effectively just a shear-pin with something to stop it falling out.

                                  Could you give us an example, please

                                  MichaelG.

                                  #439818
                                  Nick Wheeler
                                  Participant
                                    @nickwheeler
                                    Posted by ChrisB on 02/12/2019 12:47:46:

                                    Well I have seen cases where bolts are used in shear. The bolt is retained by a castle nut which is tightened just for the purpose of not falling off and secured by a cotterpin or tab washer. All the load the bolt carries is in shear not tension in these cases I mention.

                                    That's common on cable linkages. But the cotter pin is doing the retaining, not the nut which is more of an adjustable spacer.

                                    #439819
                                    ChrisB
                                    Participant
                                      @chrisb35596
                                      Posted by Michael Gilligan on 02/12/2019 12:57:55:

                                      With the greatest respect, Chris … That seems a very inefficient way to use a bolt

                                      It is effectively just a shear-pin with something to stop it falling out.

                                      Could you give us an example, please

                                      MichaelG.

                                      You may call it a shear pin Michael, I called it a bolt as most are threaded and have a hex or 12pt head. My experience of these types of "bolts" comes from aviation – as to the efficiency of use of these type of bolts, I'm not the designer, I just encountered them!

                                      #439821
                                      Oily Rag
                                      Participant
                                        @oilyrag

                                        To measure the torque of a retaining bolt (or stud and nut assembly) the usual method employed by engine development engineers is to mark the radial position of the bolt (or nut) relative to a surrounding fixed point, then to 'break off' the fastener and then to re-tighten to 'mark' – this will give the torque load of a fastener assembly. Where an engine cylinder head is concerned the torque loads will vary according to differences in gasket collapse, local casting collapse, either through thermal cycling or casting imperfections, and also due to thread 'pull'. There are now, however, systems which allow the torque induced in the bolt (or stud) to be read by recording the 'pitch'when the exposed end of the bolt (or stud) is struck, this without the need to disassemble. This uses the similarity between a bolt and a guitar string in tension to produce a 'pitch' when excited – a higher 'pitch' indicates a higher tension. This system requires a correlation exercise to remove all associated variables such as casting material, cavity differences, and other damping inducing effects which may be present. So, it will only work in a production environment for a specific application and / but with a corresponding error bandwidth due to casting production tolerances.

                                        As mentioned previously by another respondent, the best way to tension conrod bolts is to measure the 'stretch' of the bolt by a non rotating point anvil micrometer. Carillo rods using APC fasteners have a 'stretch value' defining their fitting tension – a typical value may be something in the order of 0.0048".

                                        .

                                        #439824
                                        John MC
                                        Participant
                                          @johnmc39344
                                          Posted by ChrisB on 02/12/2019 12:47:46:

                                          Well I have seen cases where bolts are used in shear. The bolt is retained by a castle nut which is tightened just for the purpose of not falling off and secured by a cotterpin or tab washer. All the load the bolt carries is in shear not tension in these cases I mention.

                                          Like a lifting shackle? Not a bolted joint is it. Stretching (no pun intended) the point a bit.

                                          #439830
                                          old mart
                                          Participant
                                            @oldmart

                                            Torque wrenches are for tightening bolts, not for undoing them. On a typical application such as a cylinder head, the bolts will be done up to a lower torque on the first time round, and then to the full tightness finally. The final tightening should be done in one continuous movement per bolt. If the tightening is interrupted just before the final torque is reached, the bolt will not be fully tightened when the torque wrench is taken to the set torque.. As soon as the tightening stops, the friction increases greatly before the bolt starts to move further. This is why it is common for taking some heads down to a lower torque, and then finishing by turning through a predetermined angle. On some older engines, the head was retightened after running to working temperature and then cooling. Then the way to retighten, was to slacken off each bolt, one at a time, before final tightening in the original sequence, to eliminate the "stiction". It is important to adhere to instructions regarding lubrication, or not.

                                            One of the jobs at work was to bolt together the propeller hubs of C130J Hercules, before final machining. The 18 threequarter inch UNF bolts were tightened with a torque wrench in a predetermined sequence to stretch them from 0.012" to 0.015". Torquing alone was not considered accurate enough.

                                            #439831
                                            ChrisB
                                            Participant
                                              @chrisb35596
                                              Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 02/12/2019 10:09:15:

                                              ALL bolts are in tension and stretch; that's how they work!

                                              My comment was in response to the above statement. In my opinion, bolts can be installed both in tension and shear, that's all. I was not referring to the type of joint being used – I'm referring to how forces can be transmitted to a bolt.

                                              **LINK**

                                              #439845
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by ChrisB on 02/12/2019 14:35:32:

                                                Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 02/12/2019 10:09:15:

                                                ALL bolts are in tension and stretch; that's how they work!

                                                My comment was in response to the above statement. In my opinion, bolts can be installed both in tension and shear, that's all. I was not referring to the type of joint being used – I'm referring to how forces can be transmitted to a bolt.

                                                **LINK**

                                                .

                                                Thanks for the link, Chris … I do see what you mean now

                                                But basically what you have there is a hinge: Which is fine if you want or need to allow movement.

                                                MichaelG.

                                                #440141
                                                John MC
                                                Participant
                                                  @johnmc39344
                                                  Posted by Michael Gilligan on 02/12/2019 15:48:33:

                                                  Posted by ChrisB on 02/12/2019 14:35:32:

                                                  Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 02/12/2019 10:09:15:

                                                  ALL bolts are in tension and stretch; that's how they work!

                                                  My comment was in response to the above statement. In my opinion, bolts can be installed both in tension and shear, that's all. I was not referring to the type of joint being used – I'm referring to how forces can be transmitted to a bolt.

                                                  **LINK**

                                                  .

                                                  Thanks for the link, Chris … I do see what you mean now

                                                  But basically what you have there is a hinge: Which is fine if you want or need to allow movement.

                                                  MichaelG.

                                                  Just had a look at the link, thats not a bolted joint, as Micheal G says its a hinge, or a pin joint i would suggest.

                                                  A bolt is never in shear, even when the bolted members are trying to slide against one another, its friction that is resisting the load. In a poorly designed and or poorly maintained joint bolts can be subject to shear unintentionally

                                                  John

                                                  #440174
                                                  James Winkler
                                                  Participant
                                                    @jameswinkler82970

                                                    A couple of primers on bolted joints which discuss bolt shear:

                                                    Machine Design: What’s the Difference Between Bearing, Shear, and Tear-Out Stress?

                                                    Engineer's Edge article Bolt or Pin in Single Shear Equation and Calculator

                                                     

                                                    Edited By James Winkler on 04/12/2019 10:40:33

                                                    #440184
                                                    vintage engineer
                                                    Participant
                                                      @vintageengineer

                                                      Not all bolts are in tension. Sadly the RAF Red Arrows had one of their pilots killed because a bolt had been incorrectly fitted. The fitters had over tightened the bolt that held the parachute and ejection seat together rendering the parachute inoperable. The bolt was supposed to loose in the pivot but no one told the fitters.RAF Crash

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