Pickle for Cartridge Brass

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Pickle for Cartridge Brass

Home Forums Workshop Techniques Pickle for Cartridge Brass

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  • #374103
    Speedy Builder5
    Participant
      @speedybuilder5

      I have a pair of very dirty WW1 German (fired) 150mm mortar cartridges. If I use sulphuric acid pickle which has been used for pickling copper boilers, it will leave a pink deposit behind. Should I use another type of pickle which would not leave the copper deposit.

      I am expecting to buff them up using buffing soap etc after pickle.

      BobH

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      #16043
      Speedy Builder5
      Participant
        @speedybuilder5

        How to clean Cartridge Brass

        #374106
        John Rudd
        Participant
          @johnrudd16576

          Fresh acid would be my choice… Sulphuric or citric..whatever comes your way..

          #374107
          nigel jones 5
          Participant
            @nigeljones5

            Even new sulphuric acid does this, it removes the zinc leaving the copper in place and is a real pain to get back to brass. I never put brass in any pickle. Some say use citric acid but it has ecactly the same effect, just takes longer. Wipe them down with a solvent then clean them up with a fillament abraisive wheel, then a scotchbrite wheel then polishing mop and paste – i use this method several times a week so I know it works.

            #374116
            Mick B1
            Participant
              @mickb1

              I've used vinegar to remove oxide coating from phosphor bronze, and I think it'd work for brass. It hadn't occcurred to me that it'd preferentially react with one component of the alloy, but I think the effect would be minor unless you left it in for days.

              I'd think it depends on the depth of the corrosion and how much metal's going to be sacrificed. It's usually important to preserve manufacturing and inspection stampings – abrasive polishes can be very destructive to those.

              #374120
              John Smith 13
              Participant
                @johnsmith13

                I've used Coca-Cola to clean very dirty brass items very quickly with no apparent damage. Try putting a dirty penny in a little Coke and it'll be clean in 10 minutes.

                John

                #374129
                Dick H
                Participant
                  @dickh

                  Have you considered clock cleaning solution recipes? Ammonia, oleic acid (liquid soap) and a pinch of acetone diluted down with water. But don´t leave it in too long.

                  #374130
                  larry phelan 1
                  Participant
                    @larryphelan1

                    Hate to think what Coca-Cola does to your insides !!

                    I have known it to make short work of a 6" nail. !

                    #374144
                    Mike E.
                    Participant
                      @mikee-85511

                      Not sure how it would work on copper, but Apple Cider Vinegar will dissolve the worst corrosion imaginable on brass and leave it looking like new.

                      #374177
                      Phil H1
                      Participant
                        @philh196021

                        I have a locomotive tender body that has a fair amount of oxide. It has brass beading soft soldered to it round the edges. Apart from elbow grease and emery/ wire wool – anything that might work?

                        Phil H

                        #374188
                        Ian S C
                        Participant
                          @iansc

                          Apple Cider, Coca Cola, or any fruit drink will work, but citric acid is probably the best and safest method. The fruit drinks may leave the item a bit sticky, but that will wash off with hot water.

                          Ian S C

                          #374189
                          Phil H1
                          Participant
                            @philh196021

                            Ian,

                            Are you also answering my concern regarding the lead solder i.e., will citric work for the tender with soft soldered beading?

                            Phil H

                            #374193
                            Martin Kyte
                            Participant
                              @martinkyte99762

                              If you don't want to atack the brass use an alkali. As has already been mooted Horolene is designed to clean old and dirty brass clocks without damage so why not use the right product for the job.

                              regards Martin

                              #374198
                              Alan Johnson 7
                              Participant
                                @alanjohnson7

                                De-zincification is common in old cartridge cases. Worse if they have been on the ocean. I have some Imperial Japanese Navy case, and a few British and Australian from WWI onwards.

                                De-zincification comes from exposure to the atmospheric oxygen – I guess. Not so good either if the case has been buried.

                                You can re-introduce the zinc again by electrolysis – think.

                                Western Australian Maritime Museum (in Fremantle) have had success in stabilising bronze cannons from Dutch wrecks recovered from shallow water on the coast. These ships ran aground in the 1600's. The Museum used a process of a controlled atmosphere rich in fuming zinc (so it was hot) and under pressure to force the zinc back into the metal structure.

                                About 30 years ago I attended a lecture by one of the Museum's curators. The lecture was about such things. They, the Museum, as world leaders in the process were also stabilsing a canon jetisoned (jetsum) from the First Fleet ship HMS Syrius after it ran aground on Norfolk Island – just after the First Fleet had landed at Botany Bay, N.S.W.

                                Not much help for your problem, but you may have to be satisfied with a "copper" finish – as they are very old.

                                #374211
                                Richard S2
                                Participant
                                  @richards2

                                  Not knowing how much they have oxidised or the condition,

                                  I had good results from using combinations of mixtures of washing liquid, clean pea shingle, stainless steel cream cleaner and white wine vinegar to remove the inside corrosion/staining of my Avon Jet engine starter cartridges-

                                  dcs01417.jpg

                                  More to do though.

                                  The exterior, I used the old formula T cut and elbow grease-

                                  dsc01420.jpg

                                  These need more internal cleaning for when I'm ready to convert their use as fuel tanks, but the worst is sorted.

                                  #374222
                                  the artfull-codger
                                  Participant
                                    @theartfull-codger

                                    I use phosphoric acid on brass, it's also good as a flux when soft soldering stainless steel,the annual "yarm fair" is in soon & I usually repair stainless water carriers for some showman friends.

                                    #374251
                                    Neil Wyatt
                                    Moderator
                                      @neilwyatt

                                      There's another option.

                                      You could clean it, then put a thin layer off brass plate on top. Zinc and copper have the unusual property of being able to be plated simultaneously.

                                      Take a look at this kit:

                                      http://www.gaterosplating.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=203

                                      Neil

                                      #375483
                                      Speedy Builder5
                                      Participant
                                        @speedybuilder5

                                        OK, so its some time since you all gave me your recommendations. I went with 1/2 cup of vinegar, teaspoon of salt and flour to stiffen into a paste. I have to admit, my wife was both sceptical and wondered as to where all this was leading. Anyway, a couple of coats of the paste, leaving each on for about 1/2 an hour and taking off with a fine ScotchBrite. A final polish with some Duraglit (other brands are available) and a final buffing up. The picture tells the story. (150mm german WW1 Howitzer 'cartridge).

                                        Thanks for your help ladies and Gents

                                        BobH

                                        howitzer cartridge.jpg

                                        #375503
                                        Mick B1
                                        Participant
                                          @mickb1

                                          Has the process damaged the headstamps? I know Duraglit can, and I'd expect Scotchbrite could too – though it might be possible to minimise both.

                                          #375554
                                          Speedy Builder5
                                          Participant
                                            @speedybuilder5

                                            No, they look good, even see the turning marks on the end of the cartridge.

                                            #375558
                                            Mick B1
                                            Participant
                                              @mickb1

                                              Looks like Polte of Magdeburg from Feb 1917.

                                              I have a 10,5 cm case by them from May 1916 – currently full of Swiss files.😁

                                              #375579
                                              Speedy Builder5
                                              Participant
                                                @speedybuilder5

                                                Spot on Mick, how did the shell attach to the cartridge, were they loaded separately or as an ensemble as the shell weighed 96 lbs, and what sort of distance would the projectile travel ? Just out of interest.

                                                #375581
                                                Mick B1
                                                Participant
                                                  @mickb1

                                                  You can see from the short cartridge case that it was a low-velocity round – max range 8,800 M.

                                                  More details here:

                                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sFH_13

                                                  #375650
                                                  Mick B1
                                                  Participant
                                                    @mickb1

                                                    The shell would be loaded separately, and rammed with the gun barrel at a low elevation to ensure the shell was rung hard into the start of the rifling, then the case with its charges. Maybe if the crew was strong, they could ram at shooting elevation (a howitzer, so usually high), but you didn't want the shell dropping back onto the propellant before firing – I don't know if the case was long enough to prevent that; its main purpose was obturation.

                                                    #375657
                                                    SillyOldDuffer
                                                    Moderator
                                                      @sillyoldduffer

                                                      The wikipedia article has an example of 'send three and fourpence we're going for a dance' in Footnote 5, ie "Robert Graves, in Good-Bye to All That, says "five-nines [were] called 'Jack Johnsons' because of their black smoke"[4] in reference to "the boxer Jack (John Arthur) Johnson (1878-1946), the first black American world heavyweight champion (1908-1915)."

                                                      A little misleading – my recollection is that 'Jack Johnsons' referred to the bursting shells, not the gun that fired them. Unusually at the beginning of WW1, 5.9" German shells were filled with TNT, which goes off with a characteristic cloud of dense black smoke, and (at the time) an unusually violent bang.

                                                      'Good-bye to All That' is an excellent book, but I also recommend Ernst Junger's 'Storm of Steel', especially in the less censored early editions. Well worth reading as a reminder that there are people who positively enjoy killing!

                                                      Dave

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