Ratchet wheel

Advert

Ratchet wheel

Home Forums Workshop Techniques Ratchet wheel

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 31 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #16041
    Matt Andrews
    Participant
      @mattandrews73332

      Designing, work holding and fly cutting

      Advert
      #371336
      Matt Andrews
      Participant
        @mattandrews73332

        Hello everyone,

        I am trying to build a small scale elevator lift using clockwork mechanisms

        I need to hold and fly cut a ratchet and am trying to figure out what is the best approach.

        I have found little information on ratchet wheel design and fly cutting.

        I get about 4 hours a week in my shop in increments so iam seeking advise to the best approach.

        My design needs a ratchet that will wind the mainspring.

        Iam not an engineer except in my heart but thinking a 1 1/2″ ratchet on the diameter and about 3/8″ thick.

        My universal dividing head does not have a chuck so it will need to be held between centers.

        How would you hold this blank knowing that you would be fly cutting the ratchet teeth or shaping them using a slotter.

        Also looking for responses with regards to ratchet tooth shape design and approach.

        The ratchet will be apart of the mechanism that winds the mainspring which is .018″ thick x .75″ wide and 120″ long.

        Any advise welcomed.
        Best
        Matt

        #371339
        Martin Connelly
        Participant
          @martinconnelly55370

          This task is not too dissimilar to gear cutting. You should be able to find plenty of examples on the internet. You have not stated what equipment or machines you have to do this but a spin indexer may be a good option if you do not have a chuck on a rotary table.

          Martin C

          #371340
          Bazyle
          Participant
            @bazyle

            Have you looked at clock making sites and clock pictures that will show you the shape and aspects of making a flycutter to cut it with. Also Meccano do one about 3/4 in diameter, again shows you the shape. There are some videos on youtube too specifically but not the one by Stefan which is not the type you want.

            #371348
            Michael Gilligan
            Participant
              @michaelgilligan61133
              Posted by Matt Andrews on 11/09/2018 17:24:30:
               
              [ … ]
              My universal dividing head does not have a chuck so it will need to be held between centers.
              [ … ]
              How would you hold this blank knowing that you would be fly cutting the ratchet teeth or shaping them using a slotter.

              .

              As the old saying goes: "if I were you, I wouldn't start from here"

              But, if you must … I think you will need the shortest and stiffest arbor that will accommodate blank and cutter, and some way of locking it against rotational creep. [sounds like a chuck of some sort would be very useful]

              MichaelG.

              .

              This is on a smaller scale than you are working, but may be of interest:

              https://watchmaking.weebly.com/ratchet-wheels.html

              .

              Please forgive the digression, but … I've just found this and felt I must share it:

              http://wiki.dtonline.org/index.php/2100_Animated_Mechanical_Mechanisms

              Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2018 19:38:09

              #371349
              Jon Lawes
              Participant
                @jonlawes51698

                This might be heresy to say but have you considered buying one? They are available for steam engine lubricators and such.

                I completely understand if you want to make one for the enjoyment of the process, however if you are not too wedded to that idea you can purchase one for not much money.

                #371351
                Neil Wyatt
                Moderator
                  @neilwyatt

                  3/8" thick! 1/8" should be plenty?

                  You have to fit it to a spindle, make an over length mandrel that fits the bore of the dividing head with the same fitting on the end.

                  Easiest shape is to use an ordinary end mill set to cut just past the centre line of the blank, depth set so each tooth cut leaves a tiny witness before the next one.

                  Neil

                  dscn2140[1].jpg

                  Edited By Neil Wyatt on 11/09/2018 19:34:08

                  #371388
                  JasonB
                  Moderator
                    @jasonb

                    Your universal dividing head should have come with a drive bar so you don't need a chuck. Mount the wheel on a decent length arbor and support the other end with a tail stock (can be bodged up if you don't have one) and then just drive the arbor with the dog from the drive bar. The long arbor will allow easy access for the flycutter without excess tool overhang or running into the head/tailstock.

                    #371394
                    not done it yet
                    Participant
                      @notdoneityet

                      Not sure what your ‘elevator lift’ actually is, or any specific details. One way or two? (like up only, or up and down)

                      Driving with a worm and wheel might be an alternative, as they can easily be arranged as a non-reversing drive.

                      Maybe look up why Fordson Standards killed so many operators, to see how effective they can be?

                      #371396
                      roy entwistle
                      Participant
                        @royentwistle24699

                        With a bit of careful marking out, a ratchet can easily be made with a saw and a file

                        Roy

                        #371401
                        Mick B1
                        Participant
                          @mickb1

                          When my missus wanted an extra ratchet reel on her loom, I went to the local agricultural supplier and bought a couple of these fence wire strainers:-

                          tensioner.jpg

                          They might need tidying and modding for what you want, but perhaps they'd work?

                          #371408
                          Russell Eberhardt
                          Participant
                            @russelleberhardt48058

                            This is how I do it:

                            dscf2351.jpg

                            Flycutter insert is made from silver steel to match the desired profile. The slight undercut required on the tooth form is achieved by setting the flycutter tip just below centre height with the ratchet direction as shown in the photo.

                            Russell

                            #371438
                            Ian S C
                            Participant
                              @iansc

                              If you are taking a slice off a bar to make the disc, perhaps cut the ratchet first. Centre the bar each end. part part way through the bar at the required thickness, then set up between centres on the mill. After the ratchet is complete, put the bar back in the lathe, bore the hole for the shaft and complete the parting off. More solid than using a mandrel.

                              Ian S C

                              #371610
                              Matt Andrews
                              Participant
                                @mattandrews73332

                                Not sure why but i responded to several responses and none had posted. Thank you for the different replies and the various ways to skin this cat.
                                I would like to cut it all out of one bar and transfer from lathe to dividing head but what a waste.

                                That is a nice set up Russel and something I want to replicate. I may have to take my 4 jaw and make it fit the dividing head.

                                Will that fly cutter cut all teeth without sharpening?

                                Best
                                Matt

                                Edited By Matt Andrews on 14/09/2018 00:57:13

                                #371666
                                Ian S C
                                Participant
                                  @iansc

                                  Matt, the life of the tool depends on the material used for the ratchet, brass it will last for ever(well quite a long time), steel a bit less, but I'v fly cut gears the same way as Russell, in steel. I make my cutters from old centre drills, or the shank of broken HSS taps. I use a bar with a 20 tpi thread in the Clarkson Chuck, keep the bar holding the cutter as short as practical for stiffness, my ones are 5/8" dia, although I made a new collet for the chuck

                                  that will take 3/4"

                                  Ian S C

                                  #371689
                                  Michael Gilligan
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelgilligan61133
                                    Posted by Matt Andrews on 14/09/2018 00:56:13:
                                    I may have to take my 4 jaw and make it fit the dividing head.

                                    .

                                    A good plan, Matt … even if it does look rather like moving the goalposts devil

                                    MichaelG.

                                    .

                                    " My universal dividing head does not have a chuck so it will need to be held between centers. "

                                    #371846
                                    Ian S C
                                    Participant
                                      @iansc

                                      You might have to turn up a spindle nose to take your chuck with a Morse taper to fit the dividing head, make it with a thread in the end of the taper to take a draw bar. Or you can do as I said earlier and you can do it between centres, and there isn't a great big chuck getting in your way.

                                      Ian S C

                                      #371862
                                      Matt Andrews
                                      Participant
                                        @mattandrews73332

                                        I have opted to make a mandrel and do the whole operation between centers as you suggest. I am turning the mandrel down to size today.

                                        I would like to somehow incorporate a positive lock via a collar clamp and a pin through the ratchet wheel.

                                        I will post pictures of set ups when i can figure out how to post them.

                                        Best
                                        Matt

                                        #371864
                                        Russell Eberhardt
                                        Participant
                                          @russelleberhardt48058
                                          Posted by Matt Andrews on 14/09/2018 00:56:13:

                                          Will that fly cutter cut all teeth without sharpening?

                                          Yes, no problem in brass. I made the fly cutter insert insert from silver steel, hardened and tempered to a medium straw colour. It has cut a few ratchet wheels without sharpening.

                                          Russell

                                          #371873
                                          Matt Andrews
                                          Participant
                                            @mattandrews73332

                                            I was going to do the ratchet wheel out of cold rolled steel and make a brass or cast iron pawl I will be winding this mainspring to the max. What do you think?

                                            Thanks
                                            Matt

                                            #371938
                                            Matt Andrews
                                            Participant
                                              @mattandrews73332

                                              Russell is it possible to see more detail of your fly cutter?

                                              I have made one but i dont trust it in this application.

                                              If possible,
                                              Thanks
                                              Matt

                                              #371953
                                              roy entwistle
                                              Participant
                                                @royentwistle24699

                                                Seeing that this is a gramophone spring I would make the ratchet in brass and the pawl in gauge plate, both about 3/16ths or 1/4 at the most

                                                Roy

                                                #371999
                                                Russell Eberhardt
                                                Participant
                                                  @russelleberhardt48058
                                                  Posted by Matt Andrews on 16/09/2018 02:00:32:
                                                  Russell is it possible to see more detail of your fly cutter?

                                                  I have made one but i dont trust it in this application.

                                                  Sorry, can't send a picture as I can't find that insert at present. The holder was just a piece of 1/2 in bms cross drilled 1/4 in with a 2 BA grub scrrew to retain the silver steel insert. The insert, about 3/4 in long, was filed flat at the end to half diameter and the end angled at 45° before adding relief angles. It was touched up with a slip stone after hardening and tempering. Nothing is very critical.

                                                  Silver steel should cut mild steel OK provided you keep the speed down otherwise you can grind one from round HSS.

                                                  Russell

                                                  #372035
                                                  Matt Andrews
                                                  Participant
                                                    @mattandrews73332

                                                    Thank you for the responses.

                                                    The mandrel is made. Just need a positive stop on it to lock it in with confidence.

                                                    I will post pictures of set up for flycutting.

                                                    Best
                                                    Matt

                                                    #374304
                                                    Matt Andrews
                                                    Participant
                                                      @mattandrews73332

                                                      Iam trying to wrap my brain around fly cutting a ratchet wheel. Particularly the single tooth ratchet form from the grinder. Also the math and the process to get a ratchet wheel with equally spaced teeth. I have the equipment but apparently missing the brain power.

                                                      What is the shape of the form tool?

                                                      Do i have to hog out most of the tooth with an end mill then finish to form with the fly cutter?

                                                      What part if the circle does the math start.

                                                      Any advise and pictures welcome.

                                                      The wheel is 1 1/2 in diameter and 3/16 thick.

                                                      Best regards
                                                      Matt

                                                    Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 31 total)
                                                    • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Latest Replies

                                                    Home Forums Workshop Techniques Topics

                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                                    View full reply list.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Newsletter Sign-up