Split Collet Fan Hub Puller

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Split Collet Fan Hub Puller

Home Forums Workshop Techniques Split Collet Fan Hub Puller

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  • #320075
    Eddy Curr
    Participant
      @eddycurr38053

      Shall I set to work on machining a split collet adapter to pull a fan hub from an armature shaft, or is an inexpensive & readily available commercial product an option for such work ?

      An Armature Bearing Puller has already been applied. The consequent damage to the lip of the hub is visible below and will not surprise anyone here.

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      #15962
      Eddy Curr
      Participant
        @eddycurr38053
        #320137
        Brian Sweeting 2
        Participant
          @briansweeting2

          Don't see any evidence of anti-stuck lubricant.

          Perhaps a good soaking might encourage movement.

          #320143
          Eddy Curr
          Participant
            @eddycurr38053
            Posted by Brian Sweeting on 05/10/2017 16:05:14:

            Don't see any evidence of anti-stuck lubricant.

            Perhaps a good soaking might encourage movement.

            The excuse for not having applied penetrating fluid or similar is that there has been uncommon success here using heat for disassembly.

            A DeWalt D26950 Heat Gun (equipped w/ an LCD display purporting to indicate outlet temperature) was played around the hub with the aim of raising hub temp to something approaching 100ºC – partly for the expansion growth, partly to aid in releasing any locking compound that might have been applied twixt hub/shaft. When deemed to be hottish, the heat gun was set aside and the Armature Puller was put to work.

            In retrospect, I suppose the p-fluid could have been left for a time to allow the volatiles to largely evaporate.

            Despite several iterations, there was no apparent movement. Eventually, luck ran out and the puller jaws damaged the hub land – what felt like possible relaxing of the hub/shaft engagement proved to be the land giving way.

            Edited By Eddy Curr on 05/10/2017 16:53:50

            #320154
            Eddy Curr
            Participant
              @eddycurr38053

              I overlooked mentioning the reason for choosing hot air over flame for heating.

              The 14mm hub w/ groove highlighted in the inset of the picture above is the only metallic portion of the molded fan/hub assembly. Everything beyond that small grooved hub is black 'engineering plastic' of some sort.

              The presence of the groove tempts thoughts that this is a provision for disassembly. Puller damage reveals that the hub is weak – maybe zinc, maybe aluminum.

              A split collet design could surround the hub for maximum engagement. On a larger scale, a similar approach is used to remove P/S pulleys with hubs equipped w/ a groove for the purpose. If using a split collet in this manner is a common practice and tools for same are readily obtained, buying would be a faster solution than making at the moment – is anyone familiar with commercial tools like this?

              #320317
              vintagengineer
              Participant
                @vintagengineer

                When you have got the puller attached and wound up as tight as possible, give the end of the puller a damn good wallop with a big hammer!

                 

                Edited By vintagengineer on 06/10/2017 19:46:11

                #320324
                Jeff Dayman
                Participant
                  @jeffdayman43397

                  +1 on wound up / wallop technique, but sometimes playing the blast from a CO2 fire extinguisher on the hub next to the shaft will help break the hub to shaft bond after winding up puller. This can reduce the needed severity of the wallop phase, which is tough on parts. Several times on similar jobs the CO2 blast has resulted in the hub breaking loose and jumping across the shop. (Admittedly, I had things on dial setting 11 in the wind up puller phase of the job to cause this)

                  #320431
                  Eddy Curr
                  Participant
                    @eddycurr38053

                    Alas, applications of brute force under present circumstances seem likely to end in tears.

                    As mentioned above, the fan hub features a groove which is just 8mm in dia, w/ a 1mm shoulder to bear on.

                    While on the small side as pullers go, the jaws of my armature bearing puller have an inner radius ideally suited for objects of 52mm dia.

                    The discrepancy results in very little purchase twixt jaw and hub – while the jaw material is up to some frisky behavior, the hub material is less inclined to cooperate. Hence the desire to encircle the hub for maximum advantage and enlarge the circumference available for the puller to engage with.

                    At the risk of seeming close-minded, split collets of a sort that encircle the hub nearly 360º, are held together/in place with an outer sleeve that can be gripped by puller jaws and allow the push bolt to pass through the center to bear on the armature shaft preoccupy me.

                    Edited By Eddy Curr on 07/10/2017 18:55:25

                    #320437
                    Eddy Curr
                    Participant
                      @eddycurr38053

                      No one has taken me to task for it yet, but I am aware that in much less time than I've spent mulling and presenting the issue here, another person with his wits about him, a few tools and some material would have made something, tested it, modified as required, finished the job and gone off to enjoy a beverage.

                      Presently, one or more of the above criteria for self-sufficiency is/are unavailable. (Hence the awkward situation of asking a community of makers about whether something such as described exists to be purchased.)

                      Edited By Eddy Curr on 07/10/2017 19:10:20

                      #320493
                      Ian S C
                      Participant
                        @iansc

                        Reminds me of one of B. Terry Aspin's cartoons in ME, Chuck the Muddle Engineer is trying to get a pulley off a shaft, and is busy making a puller, when young lad(son?) comes in, hits it with a hammer, and off it comes.

                        Ian S C

                        #320517
                        Jeff Dayman
                        Participant
                          @jeffdayman43397

                          In the puller shown in the pic above, could you cut a vee or semi circle into the jaws to fit the 14 mm dia and groove closer? I'm talking about the jaws with 26 mm radius you pointed to with the red line. This would get more jaw in contact with the groove and spread the force out a bit.

                          Is a fast solution really your priority? we're already 3 days into this thread.

                          What's this fan on? I presume a car accessory of some sort, and if the outer bits are plastic as you mention, I'd say 1960's or newer. This tells me probably hundreds of thousands of these things, maybe more, fell out of various moulds and other tooling during production runs. There could be lots of new stock old still around. If so, you could get a spare, then try something fast like arc welding on the ends of a U shaped strap of flat steel bar, one to either side of the hub, and pull the hell out of it with screw, hydraulic or slide hammer type pullers.

                          If it's an ultra rare item and no spare is available then a more conservative approach would be sensible of course.

                          #320621
                          Eddy Curr
                          Participant
                            @eddycurr38053
                            Posted by Ian S C on 08/10/2017 12:21:25:

                            Reminds me of one of B. Terry Aspin's cartoons in ME, Chuck the Muddle Engineer is trying to get a pulley off a shaft, and is busy making a puller, when young lad(son?) comes in, hits it with a hammer, and off it comes.

                            Ian S C

                            Well, guv – you're third of three who've told me to give the hub a wallop with a BFH. So, I decided to act on your directions, Ian S C.

                            First, I pulled out my trusty 5 lb sledge, along with a suitable taper punch

                            Then I anchored the hub/armature, wound that sledge back over my shoulder and let fly, putting everything I had into the swing.

                            Result !!!

                            Not only did I drive the hub straight out the back of the molded fan …

                            … I propelled the hub, the bearing and the armature smack through the motor housing – extruding the shoulders of the hex on the back side of the hub past the bore for the armature bearing.

                            I did just what you encouraged me to do, Ian S C.

                            Is that the outcome you had in mind ?

                            What do I do NOW, oh sage one ?

                            #320622
                            Eddy Curr
                            Participant
                              @eddycurr38053
                              Posted by Jeff Dayman on 08/10/2017 13:43:41:

                              … could you cut a vee or semi circle into the jaws to fit the [12] mm dia groove closer?

                              Thank you.

                              You helped by showing me what was right there in front of my nose all along.

                              Following your suggestion, I set to work with a few hand tools. I doubt this fettling will earn me an invitation to join the next induction of apprentices at Rolls Royce; but, as the socket illustrates, the end result was a good fit between jaws and hub.

                              Alas, there was no happy outcome.

                              Despite the modified jaws, a good soak w/ penetrating fluid, prewarming to approx 95ºC on a hot plate and tapping once the puller had been wound up tight, the hub did not so much as budge. Additional heat / pull interations with increasing load and more vigorous tapping only led to failure of the shoulder of the hub groove.

                              With nothing left to lose, THAT's when I pulled out the hammer.

                              As I think you will agree, the photo below shows that attempting to pull the hub from the armature shaft was likely a doomed venture from the outset.

                              Again – thanks for your suggestion.  The modified jaws worked as well as the split collet device I had in mind.  Glad I didn't delay and go to the trouble of building something that would not have succeeded against the corrosion.

                              Edited By Eddy Curr on 09/10/2017 03:04:12

                              Edited By Eddy Curr on 09/10/2017 03:12:23

                              #320801
                              Eddy Curr
                              Participant
                                @eddycurr38053

                                Before laying on the hammer, I briefly considered electrolysis – I had success with this in the past, salvaging a length of shafting found w/ a pillow block seized in place after a lengthy time in the elements.

                                If applied at the beginning, maybe electrolysis might have made a difference. Turns out that the bore at the outboard end of the hub was oversize, leaving a gap between hub and shaft for some distance.

                                What I thought was a motor-housing-to-shaft seal (between the hub and bearing race) turned out to be a press-on locking collar – presumably to prevent bearing movement on the shaft. Like the hub, the bore of the collar was relieved, creating another gap for corrosion to grow.

                                The shaft bearing had seen better days.

                                Perhaps a contributing cause to the condition of the bearing was this feature of the fan scroll housing, a drain port leading into the otherwise sealed motor.

                                This drain port might also explain why on disassembly, the motor housing was found to be FULL of water and so much silt-like material that the gaps between poles of the armature were packed solid, jamming the armature within the magnets. The photo on the right below shows two trails of silt scraped from between the magnets (with a coin in foreground for perspective.)

                                Edited By Eddy Curr on 10/10/2017 01:08:52

                                #320842
                                Ian S C
                                Participant
                                  @iansc

                                  The rest of it looks a little stuffed, but the fan is not beyond redemtion, I had a similar problem with a pulley. I bored the hole out to round, made a new hub, and used half a dozen 1/4" UNF cap screws to fix the two parts together.

                                  Ian S C

                                  #320844
                                  Hopper
                                  Participant
                                    @hopper

                                    Posted by Eddy Curr on 09/10/2017 02:30:14:

                                    Is that the outcome you had in mind ?

                                    What do I do NOW, oh sage one ?

                                    "Don't strain it — use a bigger hammer." smiley

                                    #320848
                                    Circlip
                                    Participant
                                      @circlip

                                      "The rest of it looks a little stuffed, but the fan is not beyond redemption"

                                      Don't suppose the crack from the "bore" to the outer edge will help much. Adaptor would need to be like a chuck backplate.

                                      Regards Ian

                                      #320908
                                      Eddy Curr
                                      Participant
                                        @eddycurr38053
                                        Posted by Jeff Dayman on 08/10/2017 13:43:41:

                                        What's this fan on? I presume a car accessory of some sort, and if the outer bits are plastic as you mention, I'd say 1960's or newer. This tells me probably hundreds of thousands of these things, maybe more, fell out of various moulds and other tooling during production runs. There could be lots of new stock old still around. …

                                        To speak to the question regarding end use: automotive emissions control. Someone could be forgiven for thinking the part has come from a flood-salvage recovery or a decades-old wreck left out in a pasture. In fact, it is from an 11 yo, single owner vehicle w/ a history of just 90K km of asphalt roads. At MOST, the thing has seen a total of 600 km of anything other than asphalt in its short life.

                                        While it resides in the e-compartment (armature vertical), the pump is not subject to HIGH temperature. The pump is commanded -ON- for short durations (seconds) at engine start-up under specific and infrequent atmospheric conditions. It draws in ambiant air and pumps this through a 600mm long molded y-hose to two solonoid-operated poppet valves (backed up by downstream reed valves for one-way flow). From each valve, 300mm stainless tubes conduct the pump's discharge air to inlets on water-jacketed cylinder heads.

                                        On the face of it, hardly a taxing existance as auto parts go.

                                        As to rarity, I only have an indirect measure. Forum threads (created at four sites representing 3/4's of the globe and the vast majority of english-speaking enthusiasts) just asking for a simple measurement from one of the solonoid valves went unanswered for three months and remain so, as far as I know.

                                        New replacement pumps are available over the counter in Canada for the equivalent of GBP £500 at today's exch rate of 0.605.

                                        #320928
                                        Eddy Curr
                                        Participant
                                          @eddycurr38053
                                          Posted by Circlip on 10/10/2017 12:43:33:

                                          Posted by Ian S C on 10/10/2017 12:04:56:

                                          The rest of it looks a little stuffed, but the fan is not beyond redemption, I had a similar problem with a pulley. I bored the hole out to round, made a new hub, and used half a dozen 1/4" UNF cap screws to fix the two parts together.

                                          Don't suppose the crack from the "bore" to the outer edge will help much. Adaptor would need to be like a chuck backplate.

                                          It may turn out to be a fool's errand, but I am optimistic about returning this pump to service.

                                          After initially discovering water/silt filling the motor housing, I imagined the pump was a lost cause. While able to scrape and brush silt from the case and windings, the endbell contents were not accessible with the armature held in place by the fan. Feeling there was nothing to lose, the endbell was simply rinsed out w/ tap water – a lot of debris flushed away. A nod to propriety called for a brief effort to oil the bearings. Then the motor was buttoned back up and powered.

                                          To my surprise the motor ran on a 10A fuse, despite being fitted w/ a 60A in service. Sounded like a blender full of raw carrots, mind you.

                                          It was tempting to leave well enough alone, maybe just change out the bottom bearing. After all, the thing seldom ever runs, not for long when it does and the bearing in the endbell might not be too bad, right? But where's the fun in being pragmatic …

                                          Ian S C and Circlip's suggestions regarding fan repair by attaching this to a bespoke hub align with my thinking. As supplied, the fan disk (between hub/blades) has a close fit within the circumference, top & bottom of the scroll housing – some modification will be in order.

                                          If I had whiter teeth, fresher breath and a more engaging personality, perhaps I could persuade a fellow member of a local club who EDM'd compressor blades for his scale turbine to similarly make a replica of my factory part. Alas, I expect to be found wanting on all counts.

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