Westinghouse pump in 5″ gauge

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Westinghouse pump in 5″ gauge

This topic has 25 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 28 December 2021 at 21:14 by John Billard 1.

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1 February 2017 at 17:42 #281784
John Billard 1
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@johnbillard1
I am building a Gresley rebuild of a Great Eastern Super Claud of which a Westinghouse pump is an essential feature that I would like to include but as a boiler feed. I have seen this done. Roy Amsbury refers to it in a past Model Engineer but details are sketchy. Don Young includes it in his O2 drawings, but as earlier LBSC versions also show, this is a little out of scale. Any information or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards, John Billard
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1 February 2017 at 17:42 #1587
John Billard 1
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@johnbillard1
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1 February 2017 at 19:38 #281804
Granville Askham
Participant
@granvilleaskham41640
Hi John, I have details and, I think lots of pic of Westinghouse air pumps. I built a 3.5" narrow gauge 'Russell' with the air pump on the front. a bit bigger than you need, my scale is about 1.75" to a foot. PM me and I will see what I can find.

GeorgeG
1 February 2017 at 20:28 #281813
Simon Collier
Participant
@simoncollier74340
I have one of these on my Simplex:

http://www.hugin.com.au/modelrail/single1inch.htm
1 February 2017 at 22:41 #281857
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Thanks, GeorgeG, I have PMd you.

John
1 February 2017 at 22:42 #281858
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Thanks Simon, I will investigate! Do you use it as boiler feed?

Kind regards

John
1 February 2017 at 23:55 #281868
julian atkins
Participant
@julianatkins58923
Hi John,

The Don Young 'Fishbourne' IOW O2 5"g design doesnt work!

There is little information on a scale 5"g design single acting pump. I have seen a number of LBSC type pumps work on 5"g locos of single cylinder type, and driven a few with this type, but the rocker arm to avoid the crossed ports is a serious departure from fullsize. To avoid the rocker arm you need crossed ports which very considerably complicates making the steam chest.

In 7.25"g this isnt a problem, but in 5"g it is very very tricky to replicate a scale Westinghouse pump.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 01/02/2017 23:56:47
2 February 2017 at 10:21 #281906
Simon Collier
Participant
@simoncollier74340
Yes, as a boiler feed pump. The engine has this and one excellent injector, also made by Warwick Sandberg. I almost always use only the injector but the pump does work well.
2 February 2017 at 10:25 #281908
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Thanks Julian. I note that the most exquisite 5" g models usually have a dummy pump and this supports what you say. However I have seen it done.

Kind regards, John
2 February 2017 at 12:16 #281923
Bob Youldon
Participant
@bobyouldon45599
Good morning John,

I cannot remember seeing any article in the model press giving details for the construction of a"Westinghouse" pump to suit 5" gauge, as you say Roy Amsbury gave some brief details in the Model Engineer many years ago but I've yet to see one in operation. Don Young's pump for his O2 is based on an early pre war LBSC design being reliant on an over center spring arrangement and probably a bit iffy in it's performance, I understand Gerry Tull built a working pump to his own design for his O2 although I always thought it was too small for the O2. Don did describe pumps for his Lucky Seven design and his Terrier "Newport" these being based on an American design by Moodie E Braun Jnr in the American publication Modeltec November 1984, subsequently the design was revised in Modeltec in September 1985 by Bill Esty. Many years ago I built a 5" gauge A1X Terrier and I experimented with a "Westinghouse" steam pump, i had several goes at it finally utlising a small piston valve in the pump head operated by the trip rod and a slide valve built into the rear of the steam cylinder, In that size the main problem was one of condensation, but when kept hot would work quite well; I had it with me one time visiting the late Lionel Woodhead who at that time had just finished a Brighton B4, well that was the last I saw of it, it still resides on the side of the B4 firebox.

Regards,

Bob
2 February 2017 at 13:30 #281939
Another JohnS
Participant
@anotherjohns
John;

To add to what is written above; I have a 3-1/2" gauge locomotive with a single cylinder "water pump" where the cross compound pump is on the original. It's behind a shroud, so is partially hidden.

It sometimes works, sometimes not.

Have purchased two 3" Southworth pump kits, one to replace this pump with something (hopefully) more reliable.

One could adapt the design/parts to better resemble a single cylinder Westinghouse air compressor – maybe food for thought?

Time will tell as to whether this replacement works better than the original on my locomotive – JohnS.
2 February 2017 at 21:51 #282049
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Thank you for the ideas so far which are encouraging.

For those who have access The Roy Amsbury drawing is in ME Vol 143, No 3564 p 754 (1977). He made it work but there are few dimensions shown. Perhaps with some persistence this could be pursued.

A visitor came to the Reading track some years ago with a lovely 5" LT&SR 4-4-2 tank with the pump filling the boiler very realistically. Unfortunately I don't have his details.

Kind regards

John
3 February 2017 at 02:18 #282073
Another JohnS
Participant
@anotherjohns
John;

"over here" (North America) there are lots of smaller locomotives with dual-cylinder water pumps. Lots of locomotives had them (at least here in Canada). Cross-compound air compressor(s) and sometimes a water pump.

A fellow Model Engineer Bill Shields has drawings on his web site:

http://http://mehrs.com/ (link) **LINK**

I don't know of a single cylinder or two cylinder pump is what you are looking for, so "just for your info"
3 February 2017 at 08:00 #282083
Brian Baker 2
Participant
@brianbaker2
Greetings, A long time ago, I built a Great Eastern Railway S56 Class "Buckjumper" in 5 inch gauge, which had a working Westinghouse pump, which was based on the Roy Amsbury design.

Roy was very helpful with details, and the pump worked fine, but tended to run a little fast.

I have to say that I think it used more steam than it put water in the boiler.

Regards

Brian
3 February 2017 at 10:50 #282124
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Thank you John, I will follow that up. Brian, did you retain the advice from Roy? I appreciate the time lapse. That is a lovely model though. Congratulations.

Best wishes

John
3 February 2017 at 12:19 #282154
Brian Baker 2
Participant
@brianbaker2
Hi John, I finished it in 1986.

If I kept the details, it would be in the archives & need looking out.

I will have a look later today.

regards

BB
3 February 2017 at 12:39 #282160
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
That's very kind of you, Brian

John
5 February 2017 at 22:32 #282576
julian atkins
Participant
@julianatkins58923
Hi John,

You are very privileged to have the likes of Bob and Brian contribute to this discussion as they have both made working examples.

I knew Gerry Tull quite well and drove his award winning IOW O2 'Totland' but never saw the pump work. The 2 injectors supplied the boiler.

Cheers,

Julian
6 February 2017 at 17:42 #282709
Brian Baker 2
Participant
@brianbaker2
Hi John, sorry to take so long, but I had filed his letter in the wrong place 32 years ago, and it took time to find it.

It looks like his typewriter ribbon was on its way out, but I hope you can read this scan.

If not PM me & I will email it to you.

Not as much help as I remembered.

for your info, I have built 6 various pumps of this type, and the best operating one was based on a design in "live steam", I will try to find the date.

Regards

Brian
6 February 2017 at 19:31 #282738
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Thank you very much Brian for taking the time and trouble in looking out this information. I can read it. Everything is valuable. It says a great deal for this forum and its contributors with the responses I have received and I feel very encouraged, and as you say, Julian, privileged.

Best wishes

John Billard
11 February 2017 at 23:27 #283726
julian atkins
Participant
@julianatkins58923
Hi John,

You need to take a pinch of salt with some of what Gerry Tull wrote.

I never saw that pump working though I saw the loco running lots of times, and drove his gold medal winning 5"g IOW O2 based on Don Young's 'Fishbourne' design.

Gerry always said his whistle was 'special' for the O2. I never heard that either! He described in LLAS how he had researched how to make the perfect whistle. (He also described in LLAS how he made the pump).

Anyway jump on 30 or so years and Gerry's IOW O2 is now owned by a guy in the Isle of Man. At my request he very kindly took the whistle off the loco and measured it up and sent me pics. It is just a bog standard whistle – nothing special about it at all!

Bob has very kindly sent me the drawings of his own Westinghouse pump example. I would be very interested to know from Brian how he managed his own examples in 5"g.

Gerry was a wonderful guy and I am sure is sadly missed by many friends. I have quite a considerable correspondence with him, but unlike Brian my letters from Gerry have a printed letterhead with a printed picture of his O2 above!

The Southworth smallest pump is far too big for a standard gauge 5"g loco for scale size of a Westinghouse pump.

Cheers,

Julian
24 December 2021 at 12:59 #576565
Peter Ellis 5
Participant
@peterellis5
Posted by Bob Youldon on 02/02/2017 12:16:45:

Many years ago I built a 5" gauge A1X Terrier and I experimented with a "Westinghouse" steam pump, i had several goes at it finally utlising a small piston valve in the pump head operated by the trip rod and a slide valve built into the rear of the steam cylinder, In that size the main problem was one of condensation, but when kept hot would work quite well;

Julian mentioned that you had drawings for your Westinghouse Pump. I have a box of brass and F/c S/S for one and the drawings have become separated. Any chance of a shufti, please ?

Kindest regards

Peter
24 December 2021 at 17:48 #576612
John Billard 1
Participant
@johnbillard1
Its a while since I started this thread but I'd be interested in the drawings too if that is at all possible.

Kind regards and best wishes of the season

John B
26 December 2021 at 10:11 #576816
julian atkins
Participant
@julianatkins58923
Sadly, Bob Youldon died 2 years ago, but he had sent me via email attachments his notes and drawings back in 2016.

I can probably work out how to forward them on via email.

Cheers,

Julian
26 December 2021 at 12:57 #576842
Peter Ellis 5
Participant
@peterellis5
Thank you Julian. That would be greatly appreciated.

peter.ellis@croatiapropertyservices.com

All the best for the New Year

Cheers

Peter
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