Making V-Blocks

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Making V-Blocks

This topic has 36 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 23 August 2014 at 12:00 by Ian S C.

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29 June 2014 at 03:15 #156544
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
I am on making V-blocks the block is 55x65x140L I will cut into two.
I have already marked out everything drilled at the bottom of both V's and milled out the clamp slots on the sides. The ML7 vertical mill is a great attachment as are my hold down clamps.

I am cutting two V's one large one small. Large will be approx 1" deep, small approx 1/2 deep.

My dill-ema is in doing the V's.

In all my web searches on making V-blocks each one I find has either another set of V-blocks to set the angles with for milling or an inclination/angled vice.

To do this without using the above I have so far come up with.

1 Hand cut rough the V then mill on the ML7 to finish

2 Use the 4×6 BS in vertical mode again rough cut and mill

I still need a way to mount and clamp the block on the lathe to mill it.

Any suggestions
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29 June 2014 at 03:15 #15718
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
29 June 2014 at 07:49 #156549
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Raymond Sanderson 2 on 29/06/2014 03:15:22:
- I am on making V-blocks the block is 55x65x140L I will cut into two.
- The ML7 vertical mill is a great attachment as are my hold down clamps.
- I am cutting two V's one large one small. Large will be approx 1" deep, small approx 1/2 deep.
- I still need a way to mount and clamp the block on the lathe to mill it.
Any suggestions
.

Raymond,

I have "bulleted" what I see as your key points … the first and third are fine, but I'm struggling with the second and [therefore] the fourth.
- Do you have a photo of the "ML7 vertical mill" attachment?
- Does it use the Myford cross-slide as the work table?
I'm assuming that it's something like the Rodney or Amolco attachments, which don't have a tilting head …

MichaelG.
29 June 2014 at 08:58 #156555
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
It's too big to angle the vertical slide and move the block up and down.

Get a bit of hefty steel angle, it won't be accurate but that doesn't matter. Turn it upside down and clamp the block blank to one of the faces. Set it on a flat surface, and file away/scrape one edge of the angle until the block is truly at 45 degrees. Now clamp the whole assembly in place on cross slide.

Geometer suggested making 'emergency' v-blocks from angle iron welded to bars underneath, and trued up.

Neil
29 June 2014 at 09:43 #156559
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/06/2014 08:58:35:

It's too big to angle the vertical slide and move the block up and down.

.

Neil,

Interesting to see that we interpreted Raymond's "vertical mill attachment" differently.

Obviously, I don't know which style Raymond has; hence the request for a photo.

MichaelG.
29 June 2014 at 10:37 #156562
IanT
Participant
@iant
Not sure about how much clearance/bolting flexibility you have on your set-up Raymond but a small tilting angle plate might be of use to you and it could be used for any similar 'angled' cuts you might need to make. A cheaper (but temporary) alternative would be to bolt a suitable cylinder to the bottom of a steel plate (a kind of 'simple' sine plate) and clamp your work piece to that. A guide piece would help reverse the work and maintain the settings.

Both my milling heads can 'tilt' but frankly I don't usually bother to use this facility, as having trammed them, I am too idle to want to do it again unless it's really necessary (I use the tilt table for any 'quicky' milling jobs instead).

Of course, I probably wouldn't machine V-blocks on my milling machines anyway. I have a Shaper which would be my preferred machine tool for this particular kind of work. But that's another topic altogether of course.

Regards,

IanT
30 June 2014 at 02:49 #156641
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
Thanks all for your in put lost of good ideas here now just need some warmer days and I'll be out there for longer than an 1hr roll on spring.

I have posted photos of the set up used for milling the clamping slots and marked block
30 June 2014 at 07:38 #156645
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Thanks for posting the photos, Raymond

I now see that my interpretation of your set-up was wrong.

… I shall now engage Pondering mode …

MichaelG.
30 June 2014 at 08:27 #156646
Rik Shaw
Participant
@rikshaw
I have made V blocks in the past but back then I was in the fortunate position of being able to harden and grind them as well. Nowadays, and no longer having access to these facilities I would not even contemplate "roughing" out a set on a milling machine for precision use. So much easier to buy a manufactured set – even if they are second hand.

Rik
30 June 2014 at 09:07 #156649
JohnF
Participant
@johnf59703
Raymond, With the kit you have and the size of the job it's a big ask on a relatively small machine, however I would suggest you set the vertical slide at 45 deg on the cross slide then use the compound slide as the in feed Y and the vertical slide X movement to make the cut ( up and down) The block will be mounted on the vertical slide in such a way so you can machine one side of the V then turn 180 deg to do the other side. I would use stops clamped to the V slide so that when you invert the block you will have the same setting, or at least as close as possible.

You will have to cut the V blocks into 2 I think because you will not have enough travel on the vertical slide to do them in one piece but you can asses this yourself.

hope this helps. John
30 June 2014 at 10:20 #156655
IanT
Participant
@iant
Ok Raymond, I think I was also confused by the terminology used here. My apologies.

I was thinking a Rodney type milling head (vertical mill) on your lathe rather than a vertical milling slide. I agree with JohnF that this will be a tough job with this setup and even a reasonable finish (let alone Riks' precision one) will be a challenge if the set-up used isn't really rigid.

As an "out the box" thought, I wonder if it might be possible to make each v-block in two halves, which might be a wee bit easier to do with this setup and would allow other machining options to be used (such as flycutting). It would also potentially allow key surfaces to be more easily scraped (or lapped?) afterwards to improve the surfaces. Any small alignment issues should be 'adjustable' when the two halves are mated back together (get the v's right and then adjust the other plain surfaces).

I'm not sure if this is a practical proposition for you (or not) as it's always hard to see what will work without the various bits to hand to play with & try out. But sometimes a bit of lateral thinking can help help you to work around a difficult problem like this. It would be lovely to have all the necessary kit to do any kind of machining operation but even the best equipped amateur will sometimes hit problems that are hard to tackle.

So I guess my suggestion is that even if you don't have the right machine to do the work – maybe you can change the "work" to suit the available machine? Just a thought.

Regards,

IanT
30 June 2014 at 10:35 #156657
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by JohnF on 30/06/2014 09:07:51:

… You will have to cut the V blocks into 2 I think because you will not have enough travel on the vertical slide to do them in one piece but you can asses this yourself.

.

John,

I think you are probably right; but therein lies the biggest problem [Alignment of the Vees]

… Cutting the Vees with the two Blocks still joined would be a much more reliable way of assuring that they would end-up as a matched pair. … but no, I still can't see how to do it

MichaelG.
30 June 2014 at 10:44 #156659
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
Posted by Rik Shaw on 30/06/2014 08:27:47:

I have made V blocks in the past but back then I was in the fortunate position of being able to harden and grind them as well. Nowadays, and no longer having access to these facilities I would not even contemplate "roughing" out a set on a milling machine for precision use. So much easier to buy a manufactured set – even if they are second hand.

Rik

Rik your right even with a son now working where I could possibly buy them through him (I started this prior that) These days a reasonably priced simple set here will set me back just $50

Posted by JohnF on 30/06/2014 09:07:51:

Raymond, With the kit you have and the size of the job it's a big ask on a relatively small machine, however I would suggest you set the vertical slide at 45 deg on the cross slide then use the compound slide as the in feed Y and the vertical slide X movement to make the cut ( up and down) The block will be mounted on the vertical slide in such a way so you can machine one side of the V then turn 180 deg to do the other side. I would use stops clamped to the V slide so that when you invert the block you will have the same setting, or at least as close as possible.

You will have to cut the V blocks into 2 I think because you will not have enough travel on the vertical slide to do them in one piece but you can asses this yourself.

hope this helps. John

John had considered this option

IanT again thanks for your reply and thoughts

MichaelG Thanks

I have one other idea which on another forum was also suggested.

That is using angle iron and forming the angle required on the cross feed table

I am always one to take on challenges beyond it pushes me to use the grey matter, one day i would like a mill.
30 June 2014 at 10:56 #156661
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Raymond Sanderson 2 on 30/06/2014 10:44:48:

I am always one to take on challenges beyond it pushes me to use the grey matter

.

Keep it up Raymond !!

It's no fun if it's too easy.

MichaelG.
30 June 2014 at 11:29 #156663
IanT
Participant
@iant
… Cutting the Vees with the two Blocks still joined would be a much more reliable way of assuring that they would end-up as a matched pair. … but no, I still can't see how to do it

I agree Michael – but then it becomes a different problem to solve. When I said get the V's right and then adjust the other surfaces, I had in mind clamping the V-blocks to a bar (to hold the V surfaces in alignment) potentially allowing the base and then sides & top to be milled (or flycut) to a common datum. The ends can then be simply faced whilst clamped to the bar held in the lathes' chuck.

Not that easy (or quick) but yes – all part of the fun (well mostly!)

Anyway – Good Luck Raymond – and do let us know how you tackled it in the end!

IanT.
19 August 2014 at 11:40 #161120
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
First full day in the garage so I set up the 4×6 bandsaw in vertical mode and rough cut the waste of the V-blocks.

Glad I had a spare blade as about 1/3rd into 2nd last cut I stopped for a break and found a split in it.

I am going to ache tomorrow.
19 August 2014 at 12:39 #161122
MadMike
Participant
@madmike
Raymond as usual there is a lot of good sound advice on here. However, without seeming to piss on your parade, I frankly cannot begin to understand why you are bothering at all, unless you have no other work to be getting on with.

I would simply buy a commercially made ground set of V-Blocks. They are so cheap these days. Second hand ones on the well known flea-bay are even cheaper. This would allow you to use them instantly to carry on with whatever projects you have in hand.

I know that many will say that "model engineers" like to make everything themselves, however good engineers do not waste time and money trying to reinvent the wheel, or in this instance the Vee Block. The cost of the material alome, as so much will become swarf, plus the time consumed and then to possibly not have a set of Vee's that are as accurate as commercialy made ones just does not make sense to me.

Sorry everybody if this is not a popular view. Other opinions are available from numerous sources.
19 August 2014 at 13:34 #161127
Hopper
Participant
@hopper
For a light clean up like that you might get away with using a large multi-fluted counter-sinking cutter to machine the V groove to finish size. If you leave a little of the notch in the root of the V you could even cut one face at a time and make life easier for yourself.
19 August 2014 at 13:40 #161128
Neil Wyatt
Moderator
@neilwyatt
> Other opinions are available from numerous sources.

Here's one: Apprentices make test pieces to learn and improve their skills, why shouldn't hobbyists?

Neil
19 August 2014 at 15:14 #161138
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Well said, Neil

Hobbyists are Amateurs in the literal sense of the word.

MichaelG.
20 August 2014 at 00:19 #161188
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
Posted by MadMike on 19/08/2014 12:39:28:

Raymond as usual there is a lot of good sound advice on here. However, without seeming to piss on your parade, I frankly cannot begin to understand why you are bothering at all, unless you have no other work to be getting on with.

I would simply buy a commercially made ground set of V-Blocks. They are so cheap these days. Second hand ones on the well known flea-bay are even cheaper. This would allow you to use them instantly to carry on with whatever projects you have in hand.

I know that many will say that "model engineers" like to make everything themselves, however good engineers do not waste time and money trying to reinvent the wheel, or in this instance the Vee Block. The cost of the material alome, as so much will become swarf, plus the time consumed and then to possibly not have a set of Vee's that are as accurate as commercialy made ones just does not make sense to me.

Sorry everybody if this is not a popular view. Other opinions are available from numerous sources.

Mike your not alone in your view but you need to take in all the facts first and see it from my side of the pond.

Yes there are cheap V-blocks about either from fleabay or other sources $35 was the cheapest small set/pair I could find did not suit what I wanted them for. Here's my main supplier of machining goods here in Sydney https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Vee-Blocks

My other supplier has them for $39 each more to what I was after with a clamp https://mcjing.com.au/categorybrowser.aspx?categoryid=45

2nd hand V-blocks here are like hens teeth snapped up at almost new prices even if home made and these are few and far between. Usually from deceased estates of old model engineers or engineers home shops.

The steel block I got FREE from a friend

The other fact is I am on a disability pension and in Australia that money doesn't go far at all it is less than 1/3rd the average weekly wage.

This is about me and gaining skills and using my mind and hands and improving my concepts of what it would have been like if I had done the trade I wanted to. I have had plenty offers to do this for me from those with equipment I could only dream of. By engineers and model engineers who already have the gear and much more than I do.

I don't find your comment in anyway a put down, I feel sorry that so many people have come to loose insight into others lives and that its become acceptable that everyone is of the same financial situation.

That the choice is so easy these days "Just pop down to the store or net and buy them". No wonder many kids jnr engineers have no idea about hands on or using their minds and hands and hearts.

As for time well thats not up to me I am lucky to still be here after 50 years each day is a blessing.

I do have other projects to get on with this was just one of them not just in metal but also in wood and plastic's and what ever else I find.

Ray
20 August 2014 at 00:24 #161189
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
Posted by Hopper on 19/08/2014 13:34:11:

For a light clean up like that you might get away with using a large multi-fluted counter-sinking cutter to machine the V groove to finish size. If you leave a little of the notch in the root of the V you could even cut one face at a time and make life easier for yourself.

Hopper your spot on here the smaller V could even be done with maybe a router cutter of HSS or Nitride.

I have now less clean up to do.

Friend who supplied the block is making a 90 deg cutter out of a 2 flute old Milling cutter. for the large V.

I had considered doing it by hand using a variety of files etc but I am not that desperate LOL.
20 August 2014 at 00:29 #161190
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 19/08/2014 13:40:14:

> Other opinions are available from numerous sources.

Here's one: Apprentices make test pieces to learn and improve their skills, why shouldn't hobbyists?

Neil

Thats the way i approached this Neil even tho I have been playing with metal most of my working life. I found inspiration as a kid reading Harold Hall's, articles in ME and Tubal Cain not to mention many a hobbiest home engineer I grew up around. I admired and envied their skills. Today i look back and see some had more ass than class but produced a 1st class job.
20 August 2014 at 00:30 #161191
julian atkins
Participant
@julianatkins58923
hi ray,

you are doing a marvellous job and is great credit to you! keep up the good work!

cheers,

julian
20 August 2014 at 00:31 #161192
Raymond Sanderson 2
Participant
@raymondsanderson2
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/08/2014 15:14:19:

Well said, Neil

Hobbyists are Amateurs in the literal sense of the word.

MichaelG.

Without both we wouldn't have engineers.
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