Cutting a non linear spiral thread

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Cutting a non linear spiral thread

Home Forums Workshop Techniques Cutting a non linear spiral thread

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 32 total)
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  • #112262
    Brian Wood
    Participant
      @brianwood45127

      Hello Everyone,

      I have puzzled on and off for years on how the guidance form was machined 70 years ago without the benefit of today's CNC methods

      These components were made in ten's of thousands in the USA. It it superbly made and finished, the thread form has I think been ground after milling. The barrel is 1/2 inch diameter and the groove is 29 degree ACME form.

      My question is how would you go aboutdoing this using mechanical methods alone to form the logarithmic shape, there must be amongst the forum members plenty of experience. I have my own ideas, but it would be interesting to see what the rest of you think. There should be 3 photos if I've pushed all the right buttons.

      Brian

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      #15624
      Brian Wood
      Participant
        @brianwood45127

        Component for bomb release cabinet

        #112268
        Brian Wood
        Participant
          @brianwood45127

          dcp_5399.jpgdcp_5400.jpg

          Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:32:02

          #112274
          Ady1
          Participant
            @ady1

            Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:33:15

            #112276
            Bazyle
            Participant
              @bazyle

              I don't know about then but now, not having a CNC setup, I would couple the mill table to a universal dividing head using a spiral pulley and a wire instead of gears. Od course that means a spiral has to be made thus creating a new problem.smile p

              Is it specifically a logarithmic relationship of just not linear?

              #112277
              Michael Gilligan
              Participant
                @michaelgilligan61133

                Brian,

                See if this makes sense …

                It is possible to vary the effective pitch of a leadscrew by running it at an angle to the slide.

                [My Gaertner Toolmaker's Microscope has this adjustment, for calibration]

                … Note that the Nut is allowed to float sideways.

                However; instead of angling the screw, the nut can be made to follow a profile.

                I see that you already have a Taper Turning attachment … There are similarities.

                MichaelG.

                 

                P.S. … I presume that the thread would be milled [can you see any evidence?]

                Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:34:21

                #112278
                Clive Foster
                Participant
                  @clivefoster55965

                  Yup US National Bureau of Standards developed an attachment for 9" SouthBend lathes under contract to the Navy Aeronautics Bureau. Drawings can be found at **LINK** along with a lot of other SouthBend related information. Presumably to expand production of such components to meet wartime needs by exploiting the large number of SouthBend and similar machines in schools and training establishments.

                  Specialist machines do it differently. One way is by chasing using a non linear master. Another is to fit a matching feed screw to the slide of a standard precision bench lathe driving in the usual manner through a shaft from a gear train. Far as I know the mould makers lathes with sliding lead screws can only do linear pitch changes .

                  Clive

                  Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:35:21

                  #112280
                  Michael Gilligan
                  Participant
                    @michaelgilligan61133

                    Excellent Link, Clive

                    Many thanks!

                    MichaelG.

                    Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:35:48

                    #112281
                    Keith Long
                    Participant
                      @keithlong89920

                      There are a lot of ways of achieving the non linear motion needed to generate the screw thread. In the Workshop Technology Series No 440 – Mechanical Movements – there are numerous examples of non linear gear systems using eccentric gears, elliptical gears, "snail" gears etc. Also a simple crank mechanism will give nonlinear motion, as will a whole range of cams. It would be fairly straightforward to disconnect the lead screw driving the table and then to substitute a mechanism based on one of the above, geared to the spindle that is rotating the screw. By changing cam profiles or gear shapes you could generate just about any non linearity that you want, and if the machine becomes a special, just doing this – so what , you're going to be making hundreds or thousands of them.

                      Keith

                      Edited By Keith Long on 16/02/2013 18:54:52

                      Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:36:16

                      #112320
                      Brian Wood
                      Participant
                        @brianwood45127

                        Hello Michael and Bazyle,

                        I finally managed to get the photos to load, it seemed to want to handle them one at a time, Part of my trouble is that I don't have a 5 year old in the house to show Grandad what an old fool he is! The result is I'm afraid both messy and bitty.

                        I don't know which non-linear form the thread is, it might well be trigonometric. Would it actually make much difference to the process of producing it? I rather doubt it.

                        I'll see what develops. Thanks for your interest

                        Brian

                        #112322
                        Brian Wood
                        Participant
                          @brianwood45127

                          Gentlemen,

                          The spiral form is very clearly milled, starting with a plunge cut at the closed end. The finish is too good to be left at that, it has also been ground so that motion to the bronze carrier is still possible from the run out end of the thread where side forces have more effect. Under a good lens I can see the witness marks of the milling at the start, and moreover, the ground acme form seems to been achieved by angulation of the stone; the bottom of the groove finishes in an inverted Vee

                          Thank you Clive and Keith for your observations, I had no idea such could be achieved on a lathe.

                          Brian

                          Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:36:45

                          #112334
                          Sub Mandrel
                          Participant
                            @submandrel

                            Bombsights were amazing analogue computers. I guess (and it is a guess) that your spiral is to compensate for the apparent accelaration of the target (really the change in angular displacement) as you fly up to it. There would have been separate adjustments for altitude and speed.

                            Neil

                            Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:37:13

                            #112336
                            Brian Wood
                            Participant
                              @brianwood45127

                              Neil,

                              My father-in-law found it after the war and dismantled much of it. It was packed with anaeroid bellows in pairs on balanced beams, pipes all over the place, lots of gearing and shafts, all cross pinned and running in bushed diecast frames and so on.

                              Truly a box or wonders. I really have little idea what compensated for what, but airspeed, altitude, estimated ground speed and cross windsheer would all have played a part in accurate bomb release . The piece I've described struck me as instrument precision workmanship, a tricky thing to get right anyway and all made in vast numbers at a time of enormous pressure.

                              Brian

                              Edited By Wolfie on 17/02/2013 13:37:42

                              #112339
                              Wolfie
                              Participant
                                @wolfie

                                Merged. I've had to do it post by post though so they have arranged themselves chronologically, hope they are in the right order! thumbs up

                                #112342
                                Brian Wood
                                Participant
                                  @brianwood45127

                                  Thank you Wolfie, it looks all the better for it too.

                                  Brian

                                  #112350
                                  Michael Gilligan
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelgilligan61133

                                    Thanks Wolfie … Much Appreciated

                                    MichaelG.

                                    #112353
                                    MICHAEL WILLIAMS
                                    Participant
                                      @michaelwilliams41215

                                      Screw shown in pictures was just thread milled in a very simple jig on a milling machine . Common shaft , blank on one end and master on the other end . Shaft arranged to slide and rotate in a support block . Fixed pin or roller engages in master such that rotating the master by hand or under power causes blank to follow required profile under milling cutter .

                                      Master would generally be made larger diameter than finished workpiece . It could be precision made but more often than not masters were quite crude – even as crude as a strip of steel wound round a bar .

                                      Advantage of doing it this way , apart from simplicity , is that set up can be used many times for either multiple cuts on one blank or the making of production series of parts – in all cases without any risk of loss of register between master , blank and cutter .

                                      The making of all sorts of funny screws , cams and gears was common in the days of mechanical analogue computers .

                                      Some of theses screws , cams and gears could have generated shapes but more often they were made as one off's using hand made masters .

                                      Sometimes masters were made very big and also sometimes geared or worked via lever arms to get better workpiece control and to reduce errors .

                                      Regards ,

                                      Michael Williams .

                                      #112369
                                      MICHAEL WILLIAMS
                                      Participant
                                        @michaelwilliams41215

                                        The job was probably actually done with a sliding spindle auxilliary headstock – the same set up as described above but using a proper piece of equipment with a substantial spindle and provision for work holding in the normal way .

                                        Machine manufacturers of bygone times offered all manner of useful attachments for their machines . Auxilliary headstocks of several different types were commonly available for high class machines . Usually supplied for lathes but could easily be adapted for milling and grinding .

                                        Apart from the sliding spindle type the other common auxilliary headstock were the high speed , raised centre height and shuttle spindle types .

                                        #112372
                                        Sub Mandrel
                                        Participant
                                          @submandrel

                                          Well done Wolfie; have a gold star star

                                          Neil

                                          #112472
                                          Brian Wood
                                          Participant
                                            @brianwood45127

                                            Thank you one and all for your interest and contributions, both to rectify my inept posting of pictures and for suggesting ways and means.

                                            I think Michael Williams spoke with authority based surely on experience, which was after all what I had hoped to promote. Clive Foster also mentioned following a master.

                                            The process has to have been simple and repeatable, these things were made by the thousand. It had simply not occured to me to use a master pattern and copy repeatedly, I was more into one off mode instead. A very useful method for other situations too.

                                            One request for Keith Long which might also be of interest to others, is there a publication in the Workshop Technology series 440 he can refer me too? I tried Googling without a lot of meaningful results other than language workshops and trying Mechanical movements yielded a Victorian publication for 507 ideas by Brown available from Amazon, that didn't seem right either but it was more relevant.

                                            Clive Foster's link for Southbend drawings and information was also interesting, I shall study it in detail.for my education at least.

                                            Brian

                                            Edited By Brian Wood on 18/02/2013 17:02:27

                                            Edited By Brian Wood on 18/02/2013 17:04:11

                                            #112479
                                            Keith Long
                                            Participant
                                              @keithlong89920

                                              Brian

                                              The Workshop Technology Series is produced by Tee Publishing. Just looked on their on-line list and coundn't see it. My copy ,I think, was a download as a pdf, but I can't remember from where. It might even have been picked up at a model engineering exhibition. It doesn't have an ISBN number on it anywhere so no help there either I'm afraid. Another source that might be worth googling for is "Ingenious Mechanisms for Engineers and Designers". I believe it very much on the same lines, wierd gear and cam devices and multi-element linkages.

                                              Keith

                                              #112481
                                              Michael Gilligan
                                              Participant
                                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                                Posted by Keith Long on 18/02/2013 18:19:09:

                                                Another source that might be worth googling for is "Ingenious Mechanisms for Engineers and Designers".

                                                Keith

                                                .

                                                It's a four volume set, and absolutely superb

                                                Here is a handy hyperlink, to give you a taster.

                                                MichaelG.

                                                #112534
                                                Brian Wood
                                                Participant
                                                  @brianwood45127

                                                  Hello Keith and Michael,

                                                  Thank you both for the information, none of that would have readily emerged without my original posting. It never fails to surprise me what can tumble out in response, some of it can be quite obscure.

                                                  Brian

                                                  #112550
                                                  Keith Long
                                                  Participant
                                                    @keithlong89920

                                                    Brian

                                                    You might try this ***LINK***,

                                                    I think this might be the full version of the "Mechanical Movements" printout that I've got. This is a pdf version of a 1908 original, 7Mb download.

                                                    Keith

                                                    Edited By Keith Long on 19/02/2013 11:30:55

                                                    #112567
                                                    Brian Wood
                                                    Participant
                                                      @brianwood45127

                                                      Hello again Keith,

                                                      How very helpful of you. I found it this morning as a softback book on Amazon.co.uk for under £6 delivered and I was able to order the Workshop Technologies book you recommended from Tee Publishing, it is still listed in their 2012 paper catalogue on page 10.

                                                      Hugely expensive at £3.00!!

                                                      So a most rewarding trawl all round.

                                                      The Ingenious Mechanisms will have to wait for another day, Amazon.com are selling the set of 4 for $125 and then there would be shipping to the UK from USA. I think I will have enough to browse through for the time being.

                                                      Best wishes Brian

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