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More chat about sheds

This topic has 24 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 22 April 2012 at 12:40 by Sandy Morton.

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4 January 2012 at 20:41 #81276
frank brown
Participant
@frankbrown22225
1. Any rain that hits the shed will run down its walls, drip onto the ground and splash upwards. This is much worse when no gutters are fitted. It is best that there is at least 9″ between the bottom of the walls and the ground.

2. When you start to work in a shed in winter, even with a fire on, your feet will get cold. Its best to install under floor insulation at build time. It can be done later but is a tediuos job – best to be avoided.

3. You have your new shed again insulate it , I use 4″ glass fibre – you can get some really good deals, courtesy of Electric companies. The walls will need lining, don”t use plasterboard, its rubbish. 1/2″ OSB is a good compromise between price and strength. The ceiling can be lined with hardboard, fixed with 16mm X 4mm screws every 12″ or so into the original frame with some extra nogging put in, just to use up the 1.2m width,

4. PAINT IT ALL WHITE, because as soon as you move your kit in, put up shelves. . It just won”t happen. Look for bent tins at market stalls/clearance shops etc. You don”t need a colour co-ordinated interior.

5. Run your electrics from a non-RCD fuse in the fuse box and put a proper RCD protected box in the shed.

6. The jaws of your vise on the workbench, should be level with your elbows!!! and slightly stick out forward of the bench edge. It seems high, I am 6” 2″ and my bench is 42″ high, looks high but works very well. I will need a high stool for it when I get too old to stand up though. Also on this subject I find that bottom of shed windows should be 6″ above the bench surface, so shoving something big on to the bench does not result in something else going through the glass. Also a handy place for a pot with your pencils/markers/scribers in. A cheap work bench is made of second hand 4″ X 2″, side by side then surfaced with hardboard. It is good practise to mount the vise over a leg, I extend this and say a leg that is fitted to a piece of chipboard, so as to keep the leg upright, else the vise, bench and shed wall will “rack” when you start to use a hacksaw with some enthusiasm.

7. I put my 1000Kg milling machine on a 1m X 1m X 4mm spreader plate, it worked well in my last shed for 10 years.

Frank
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4 January 2012 at 20:41 #15551
frank brown
Participant
@frankbrown22225
Improvements to ordinary sheds.
4 January 2012 at 21:34 #81278
Charlie,
Participant
@charlie18171
Hi Frank,

I read your post with considerable interest,And i agree with most of what

you have said,I am on my third and final shed,Each one has been a little

bigger than the one before,Which is a lesson for beginners contemplating

a shed for a workshop,Get the bigest you can afford!,Like myself most

people dont apreciate the value of space untill you run out of it,I know that

there are wonderfull projects built in sheds that are little more than large

toilets, And i aplaud the people who can work in that sort of confinement,

but for me space is king,You didnt mention the treatment of the fabric of

the workshop, I cosider this to be of considerable importance if the building

is to give good service over a long period, Perhaps other members of this

forum would like to comment on this subject,

Kind regards
7 January 2012 at 07:25 #81478
frank brown
Participant
@frankbrown22225
Charlie, I used a sort of wax based preservative on my last shed and it lasted extremely well, only re-coated once in 28 years. Of course I can not find it now so I have bought some similar stuff from Wickes (other supplier are available ). I’ll let you know how it went in ten years time.

Frank
7 January 2012 at 11:31 #81492
John Coates
Participant
@johncoates48577
I would like to move my tools and machines out of the garage and into a shed so that machining and motorcycle maintenance can be separated

What minimum size would folks recommend? I could fit a 16′ x 12′ but it would dominate the area where it would go and leave no gap between my neighbours garage and a boundary fence and SWMBO would not be impressed

So I’m thinking of 10′ x 8′ or 12′ x 8′. Do folks think either of these would be a sufficient size?

Searching on the web I found this supplier Sheds who has a sale on. With respect to the materials are these the type I should be looking for? I’m not bothered about him as a supplier but more about what materials it should be made of when I search for other suppliers and prices

I intend to insulate it on all surfaces and board it out internally

Thanks for any advice
7 January 2012 at 11:50 #81495
martin perman 1
Participant
@martinperman1
John,

I’m just finishing off a 12′ x 8′ Apex Roof I have recently built, the size was dictated by the space available, internally I have built two shelves 48″ from the floor one is full width and 4′ deep the other is down the left side approx 8′ long and 2′ wide. The shed is purely storage as my machines are in the garage. By the way I restore Stationary Engines.

There is plenty of room and I could see that it would make an excellent workshop.

It had one small problem in that the floor was only 11 mm thick so had to lay another 11 mm on top. The reason being is that my biggest engine weights in at 150kg on its trolley and I could see it going through the floor.

My shed came from Argos but purely for financial reasons as through the family I get 10% off. Otherwise happy.

Martin P
7 January 2012 at 11:59 #81497
Gordon W
Participant
@gordonw
My good shed is a lean-to 8′ x 16′, I’ve got a 8″ x 16″ lathe, drill m/c and bench, plus tools etc. plus dryer for washing and 2 cats with beds, it does get a bit crowded sometimes but easily heated. Built of 3″ x2″ with stirling boards. Two things I think are important – 1) good concrete base. 2) make sure it is rat and mouse proof, difficult to get out once they are in.
7 January 2012 at 12:02 #81498
Bazyle
Participant
@bazyle
Garden sheds are only fit for garden tools. If you must at least get one with loglap or shiplap sides like the ‘shed too far’ thread but throw away the door, window and floor. Find a reject or shop damaged house door/window you can make airtight. A better starting point is a horse stable manufacturer.

Solid foam insulation like Cleotex or Kingspan is twice as good as glassfibre but you must make it a good fit and fill damage/gaps with foam or convection draughts will deefeat your efforts.

Protect the bottom foot from splashup with old slates.

The plastic vapour barrier goes on the inside of the insulation – seems against common sense but you are not trying to keep the rain out you are trying to stop your sweat condensing in the insulation half way out. Use a dehumidifier to remove your sweat. BTW a human can breathe out 6 pints of water a day so think about where it’s going.

Felt roofs always leak eventually but you might not notice for the first year as the water soaks into the insulation.
7 January 2012 at 12:32 #81500
John Coates
Participant
@johncoates48577
Well my main determinants from my current set up are:

Lathe – size 56″ x 21″ and must weigh between 200 and 250kgs

Bench no.1 – 6′ x 31″ of sturdy construction. Currently has the Chester Champion mill on it (135kgs) but I find that swarf from the Chester means I have to cover the rest of the bench with sheets to prevent workpieces and tools getting covered in the stuff

Bench no.2 – 5′ x 27″ of metal frame with my vice on it.

In the new set up I would want the Chester well away from any working/marking out area to stop my current problems with errant swarf. Might leave one bench in the garage for working on the motorcycles

What’s the alternative to felt roofs then?
7 January 2012 at 12:49 #81502
martin perman 1
Participant
@martinperman1
Bazyle,

When you have a very limited budget bespoke shed builders were way out of my league, For a 12′ x 8′ I was being quoted £1500 and soon as I mentioned I needed a double door the price leapt another £300.

One suppliers price was so I high I suggested that the one mortgage I already had was enough

Martin P
7 January 2012 at 14:53 #81511
Phil P
Participant
@philp
My workshop “shed” is a 16′ x 12′ and purpose made to my specification.

There is no window in it at all, I decided to trade the natural light for increased security.

The door is a double one to allow access for machine tools, but one door is wider than the other, the wide one is only opened for large items and the smaller one is the normal entry door.

The floor is double thickness 3/4″ marine ply so 1.5″ thick, and is set on joists spaced 10″ apart as opposed to the normal 24″ found on cheap sheds. The whole shed is sitting on a 6″ thick reinforced concrete base.

I thought the stiffer floor might be adequate for sitting my machine tools on, but I was very wrong, even the relatively small Myford was swaying around because of the spring in the wood floor. My solution was to bore 3″ diameter holes through the ply floor taking care to miss the joists below, and to fit some slugs of steel bar down onto the concrete base, the top of each slug was slightly counterbored to form a seating for the machine leveling screws and they were sealed into the floor with silicone sealant to prevent draughts or movement.

So now all my machines are sat rigidly on the concrete and do not move at all, but with the advantage of a warmer wood floor.

The walls have been internally clad with 1/2″ ply wood but not before all the space behind was filled with 2″ thick polystyrene insulation sheet, the same sheet was used to fill the gaps between the 5″ x 3″ roof joists.

I have a very strong bench across the full 12′ width at the back which is topped with a reject kitchen worktop.

All the walls were painted white and the floor with grey floor paint prior to anything going into the shed, then a ring main was installed with 10 strategically placed double sockets for the various tools. and plenty of strip lighting for the bench and machine tool general lighting.

I run a de-humidifier set at 40% humidity, and one oil filled 1.5Kw radiator which comes on via a frost stat set at 7°C. This heater does not actually come on very often, but it has cured all my rust problems that I used to have when my workshop was in a prefab concrete garage, and the temperature remains very stable inside even if it changes quickly outside.

I had this shed built, delivered and erected for £1100 in Jan 2008

Phil

Edited By Phil P on 07/01/2012 14:57:46
1 February 2012 at 20:52 #83648
frank brown
Participant
@frankbrown22225
For you who are ambitous enough to retrofit under floor insulation here how I did mine.

The bearers were up to 2″ of being square to the axis of the shed ! so measurements tended to be “average”. The basic system was to wrap glass fibre in in plastic and pulling it into each void between the bearers. So you need 4″ thick glassfibre for the area involved, A piece of rope at least two shed widths in length. The plastic wrapper I used was green plastic VCL (vapour control layer), this is 300 gauge and is easier to use and cheaper then the 1000 gauge used for damp proof courses, you will need about the shed area plus 30% or so. the only other thing I bought was “gorilla” tape, 2″ wide and REALLY sticky, masking tape just won’t do. So I cut the glassfibre to a suitable shape for the first void. Then a piece of the VCL the same shape and another piece of the VCL which was the same shape plus twice the height of the bearers. The reason for not just wrapping the glass fibre was the possibility of rainwater getting and some way of letting it out has to be sought. The correct sized VCL was laid down, then the glass fibre put on it, then the top piece of VCL laid on top and its edges were then taped to the bottom piece. At the same time one end of the bundle had the VCL edges turned in towards the centre and held with more tape, think will this bundle be able to slip in between rough concrete and wood without catching. Get your piece of rope right under the shed with one half of it out of the “feeding” end, lay the bundle on it the right way up! and at the pointy end, using the “Gorilla” tape tape the rope to the bottom VCL of the bundle. Now pull it through, trying to keep the bundle laying on the rope. When it appears at the far side, pull/cut the tape off and withdraw the rope. Fill the two ends with insulation foam (recovered from a skip!). the reason for this procedure is that because the widths of the voids are all different hard foam would not go in and glass fibre can not be pulled at all or pushed into such a deep cavity. its a tedious job I only manged 2 voids a day (due to boredom) Frank
3 February 2012 at 22:23 #83777
Blue Peter
Participant
@bluepeter
Heavy machine tools are no good on a wooden floor unless it’s made of railway sleepers, you really need a solid concrete floor to keep them solid. What I once did in a garage was to cover the concrete floor with 1000g polythene, then 2″ polystyrene with 3/4″ T & G chipboard floating on top (glued joints) like you do in a house. Where the machines went I cut out a section of floor and insulation and layed concrete (leaving the DPC) to the level of the wood. This provided an insulated floor with a solid base for machines. Paving slabs could be used instead but solid bedded to 2 3/4″ depth. You then don’t need to wait for the concrete to cure.

So I would strongly recomend any shed to have a concrete base. The sides can be mounted on the base with DPC.

For an alternative to felt for roof covering, I have used the corrugated sheets from B & Q. These look like bitumen impregnated felt and are in green or black. These are fitted over the top of (not instead of) the OSB roof sheets.

Regards

Peter
4 February 2012 at 10:22 #83796
Douglas Johnston
Participant
@douglasjohnston98463
When I built my workshop some 6 years ago I used self adhesive polyester roofing felt stuck directly onto wooden roofing planks coated with bitumen damp proof coating. This combination has worked very well and shows no sign of deterioration. The polyester material is much stronger than traditional felt and being stuck down you do not need nails and the wind does not lift the surface. Rather more expensive but well worth it in the long run.

Doug
5 February 2012 at 12:38 #83927
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
I put a new shed up for storage the year before last. 18′ x 12′ or thereabouts.

just a normal garden shed but I got them to make it a tad higher as I wanted a pent roof but with the high side at the front as i wanted the water to drain off over an existing wall.

Shopped around and found a company willing to do this and the cost was about £700 including delivery and collection but I just had it delivered as I wanted to insulate the floor before erection.

Idea was to upend it on the grass, fill with fibreglass insulation and cover with 19mm all weather ply. Did that and then had a thought, the ply side was far stronger than the tongue and grooved side as put the floor down upside down. Erected the rest OK and also did the roof with what was left over of the fibreglass and covered it with 6mm all weather ply.

Sides were done in 40mm Kingspan bought in for the job as the depth of the wall supports were 40mm. Wish now I had done the roof with this as it was so easier. The supplied felt was put to one side and some very heavy duty torch on felt bought. Well worth it as I have some of this on the workshop extension for 18 years and it’s still as good as new.

End of the day it’s still a shed but very dry and could be kept warm if needed. Eventually some small CNC’s will go in there for training purposes but as they will go onto long benches the weight will be spread and they are not heavy machines anyway.

If I had wanted heavy machines I I would have done as Peter has said and raise a slab up thru the floor.

John S.
5 February 2012 at 13:02 #83928
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Posted by Blue Peter on 03/02/2012 22:23:50:

Heavy machine tools are no good on a wooden floor unless it’s made of railway sleepers, …………………………….

Regards

Peter

Hi all,

This reminds me of a holiday job I had with a building contractor. We were demolishing an old stamping shop which had contained heavy steam hammers (like this one here for the junior forum members ) and replacing it with a new galvanising plant for motorway barriers (Armco). The hammers had been removed and there was just a brick floor in the old shop and we wondered how it had withstood generations of heavy forging. On digging up the floor there were huge 20ft long baulks of Elm, around 3ft square in section if I remember, to which the machines were bolted. The timber was in remarkably good condition.

Around the same time York Minster was being underpinned with a concrete raft as the Normans had built it on an Elm raft and it had only lasted 900 years, talk about jerry building!

Best regards

Terry
5 February 2012 at 14:23 #83940
Gordon A
Participant
@gordona
I built my shed/workshop over 20 years ago in a restricted space and could only manage approximately 10 feet X 6 feet.

As my collection of equipment and tools etc has grown over the years, I really wish that it was 10 feet by 8 feet minimum!

With a substantial workbench holding a vice and a flypress, plus a Myford ml7 on stand, Fobco drilling machine, hand powered shaping machine and hobby-type double ended tool grinder on their own stands, plus the usual tool boxes and cabinets, space for metal stock, plus DIY and gardening equipment including lawnmower, it is a health and safety nightmare!

I would therefore advise anyone planning a workshop to consider the largest size that can be accomodated or afforded.

Regards,

Gordon.
6 February 2012 at 20:31 #84068
frank brown
Participant
@frankbrown22225
Gordon, I extended my last shed, really its like building a same section shed up against one end, leaving a centre post in to support the end of the roof. Re-cover the roof as one item. I extended a 12′ X 8′ to a 16 X 8 when a “new” milling machine followed me home. The narrow part (the extension), I shifted everything along the back of the shed to get the mill in the old part. I left the old bench up to the old roof post with storage shelves one the “new” end wall behind it.

Frank
20 April 2012 at 13:45 #89417
Howi
Participant
@howi
Thanks chaps! you have all made me feel so inadequate…………..

We, the underendowed, have only one thing left to give us comfort.

We have to rely on the old saying 'It isn't what you have got, but how you use it, that counts'

Ok! OK! I know! – size matters, bigger is better, but we can kid ourselves otherwise, makes us feel so much better (doesn't really, does it?)
20 April 2012 at 15:15 #89424
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Yes , but bigger than what? Theres a nice big factory being built near our town, their little shedcovers an area of about 4 footy fields, its massive, the floor should be Ok too, its designed for 80 tonne per axle on the fork lifts, and straddle carriers they will be using, later in the year they start on part two, its quite a bit bigger! The engineering shop is built in comparisment, I'd love to have a go at that, I'm sure I could find a corner, and no one would notice me at all. But then again, good work can come from a workshop not much more than a cupboard. Ian S C
20 April 2012 at 16:14 #89425
Mike
Participant
@mike89748
I installed a workshop/shed 35 years ago, and remember paying extra for Tanalised tongue-and-groove timber, which is pressure treated with an anti-rot compound. At the time it was guaranteed against rot for 25 years. It seems to have been money well spent. I no longer own either the house or the shed, but in as much as I can tell from pictures on Google Earth there still isn't a trace of rot. My memories of the building process include mixing over three and a half tons of concrete for the base with a shovel (too stingy to hire a mixer!). A solid base is all-important for machine tools, although the bits where you stand do need insulating or you'll freeze your toes in winter. A steeply pitched roof is less likely to leak than a flat one, and provides some useful overhead storage space.
20 April 2012 at 17:05 #89428
john fletcher 1
Participant
@johnfletcher1
The wife and I built my workshop 20 years ago from ex Butlin (Filey) 7 eiths thick, tongue and groove floor boards, double doors £250 including nails. Locally we can now obtain reject roofing/wall material, which is two sheets of plastic coated steel separated with 75mm of insulation foam, the plastic inside is white. Several of my friends have made excellent workshops using this material.I notice some farm building are made of similar material so it must be durable and maintenance free. It doesn't sweat and one only needs a 100watt bulb as a heater, can't be bad. Ted
20 April 2012 at 22:19 #89453
Charlie,
Participant
@charlie18171
Hi Chaps,

I dont know if any of you have noticed that the media have developed an interest in Sheds or man caves as they are describing them, Several times over recent weeks they have been the subject of a short feature on the telly in my part of thje world,Hilighting the many uses that sheds are put to not just model engineering,This gives me cause for concern,Are we about to suffer a shed tax, ????,
21 April 2012 at 23:18 #89494
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
Posted by Charlie, on 20/04/2012 22:19:44:

Hi Chaps,

I dont know if any of you have noticed that the media have developed an interest in Sheds or man caves as they are describing them, Several times over recent weeks they have been the subject of a short feature on the telly in my part of thje world,Hilighting the many uses that sheds are put to not just model engineering,This gives me cause for concern,Are we about to suffer a shed tax, ????,

On our Virgin Media box, Discovery have a Shed Channel. What a complete waste of time! Hardly anything about actual sheds on it at all…
22 April 2012 at 12:40 #89516
Sandy Morton
Participant
@sandymorton10620
Sorry about this but when I retired I kept the premises and it counts as a domestic workshop attached to the house! Whole area is concrete floored and brick walled, roofing varies from solid concrete through corrugated iron on timber sarking and mineral felt on wooden sarking and I still have 2 car parking spaces in the yard.

Workshop sizes are – metal workshop is 2m square – cycle,general worlshop, store is 1.7m x 5m – wood workshop is 4m x 5m – electronics workshop and library is 1.7m x 5m and outside is the wood, bike, pram, freezer, dinghy store which is 5m x 5.5m. It started in life as a cow's byre and was a cycle hire shop/workshop for about 70 years!
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