Keeping it Clean

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Keeping it Clean

This topic has 24 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 30 March 2010 at 23:24 by Ian Welford.

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26 March 2010 at 00:19 #50158
ZigFire
Participant
@zigfire
I always keep my metal working machinery (lathe and mill) well covered with a breathable calico sheet while not in use.

I also like to do the occasional piece of woodwork but try as I may to control sawdust etc I always end up with some fine dust sticking to the oil used to protect the lathe and mill.

My question is what is the best solution to clean up this muck prior to applying a clean coat of protectant. Also would anyone envisage issues if this fine does settles on the DROs.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Michael
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26 March 2010 at 00:19 #15465
ZigFire
Participant
@zigfire
26 March 2010 at 09:51 #50161
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
In my experience, wood dust is a lot more benign than some of the stuff that comes off the lathe anyway, although it does have this nasty habit of soaking up oil… I just wipe it off carefully with an oily rag, and start over with the lubricant/protectant. What you definitely shouldn’t do is to try to blast it off with compressed air – it gets blown into all sorts of places that it shouldn’t, gets mixed up with metal detritus and can then cause some real damage if it gets out again.

If it gets really sticky (which it doesn’t sound like you’d let it) then I suppose that you could use paraffin to thin it a bit, but that’s almost as likely to wash it where you don’t want it as an airblast is, so I’d only use that as a last resort, unless you don’t mind a lot of dismantling.

The dust on its own shouldn’t affect the DRO scales at all, even if it gets inside, but they shouldn’t be oily in the first place. So if you can find an easy way to catch it, then just a gentle soft brush should remove it from them, I would have thought. Technically, there’s a difference between capacitative and optical scales from this POV; the cheaper capacitative ones would need a heck of a lot of dust on before it made a scrap of difference, but if you got enough dust on an optical scale, it might affect the accuracy – but before that happened, you’d have serious problems elsewhere, I think!

That’s just my take on dust though, having suffered from the same problem for years – interesting to hear what anybody else thinks…
26 March 2010 at 16:20 #50180
Mike
Participant
@mike89748
Hi Michael

I agree with Steve about wood dust., but what about the dirt that gets left behing when machining metals? Back in the 1980s, when I had to photograph some of the work done on my lathe, I found the best crud remover for the painted parts was Pledge furniture polish. It seems to contain a solvent that dissolves dried cutting fluid and old oil, and it leaves the painted finish nice and shiny without softening it.

I suppose the real answer is to clean the lathe after every job, but I have never had that much energy!

Incidentally, don’t ever use this stuff on waxed or oil-finished furniture because, as I said, it dissolves wax and dried oil. However, it’s fine for varnished surfaces or the cheaper Ikea-style stuff.

Hope this is helpful.
27 March 2010 at 00:48 #50185
ZigFire
Participant
@zigfire
Thanks Mike and Steve for your comments, especiaaly on the DRO, much appreciated. I guess at the end of the day a little fine wood dust won’t hurt too much, just makes everything look really crappy.

cheers

Michael
27 March 2010 at 08:03 #50188
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Some timbers, especially hardwoods contain a high level of minerals such as silicon which can be very abrasive. One example is teak which is very difficult to work with normal tools as it destroys the cutting edges in no time flat.

It is possible that such minerals in the form of fine dust ,when mixed with oil on the slideways could form an abrasive mix similar to a fine grinding paste. I’m not sure what effect that would have, if any but I think that I would wipe off any wood dust before using the machine just in case.

Regards

Terry
27 March 2010 at 10:32 #50191
NJH
Participant
@njh
Terry jogs my memory.

I recall, a few years ago, making some arbors for holding clock wheel cutters. In an enthusiasm of tidyness I drilled holes in a block of wood to keep them all neatly together. The wood I had to hand was a piece of Oak and, in quite a short time, the steel of the arbors in the block was really rusty . This doesn’t happen when using softwood for blocks ( which I use for centre drills, reamers, needle files etc.) so I guess you should take extra care if you work Oak in your workshop.

Regards

NJH
27 March 2010 at 10:44 #50192
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
Oak contains tannin if I recall, as does walnut and mahogany, thats the problem, much better to use a block of plastic [recycled fencing style?] to hold your tools if you must.
27 March 2010 at 10:50 #50195
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Hi NJH,

Oak contains tannic acid which reacts with steel and iron quite vigorously. Steel screws are a no no in oak, it is necessary to use brass or stainless steel, or nowadays steel screws with a good quality protective finish such as sheradizing. You can imagine what effect this tannin would have on steel or cast iron machined surfaces apart from the abrasive quality of the high silicon content.

Out of interest, as oak is so hard and corrosive it was traditional to use wooden pegs to hold parts together in carpentry such as structural timbers. If screws had to be used, say in joinery, then a steel screw would be driven into a correct pilot hole to cut the thread, and then replaced by a brass screw of the same size. Brass simply could not withstand the force needed to screw directly into oak, even with the correct pilot hole.
27 March 2010 at 11:04 #50196
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
NJH, from what I remember about Oak it’s the tannin in the wood that causes steel to rust, if you’r joining it brass rather than steel screws should be used. I had a piece of wood(don’t know what type)in a tube with a polished bore, and after a month or sothere was quite a bit of surface rust so I suppose one should be wary with any timber in the metal work dept. Ian S C
27 March 2010 at 11:56 #50197
Mike
Participant
@mike89748
Just a note for KWIL about plastic: it depends on the plastic – for instance, the stuff used for shotgun cartridge cases is quite acidic, to the point that it can cause rust in a gun’s chambers unless they are carefully cleaned after shooting. However, my knowledge of plastics is so small that I don’t know which types are non-acidic.
27 March 2010 at 20:34 #50207
NJH
Participant
@njh
Well thanks Terry, Ian & KWIL – I should have known that! My Dad had a cabinet making business and, now you mention it , I do recall him using brass if screwing into Oak.

Forgetful I guess – I blame my advancing years! ( Needless to say I didn’t follow him into the business – electronics seemed more exciting at the time and metalwork gripped me from my first view of the engineering workshop at secondary school. ) Now into retirement I can pootle about in my own workshop to my hearts content! As far as putting tools into blocks though softwood seems quite OK – I’ ve kept small screwdrivers, centre drills etc. thus for at least 10 years with no problems.

Edited By NJH on 27/03/2010 20:35:08

Edited By NJH on 27/03/2010 20:36:38
28 March 2010 at 10:07 #50221
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
I always thought it was best to clean shotguns after use anyway. The effect must be from the heat of the explosion, since unused cartridges are not left in the breach and the ejector deals with the spent ones!
28 March 2010 at 18:56 #50236
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
I should also have pointed out that the other significant reason for not using compressed air for blasting wood dust about at all is that it dumps it straight back into the atmosphere, where you are likely to breathe it.

Nobody yet has apparently established what the safe levels are, but if, for instance, you are cutting up MDF, then you will blow urea-formaldehyde back into the air. Personally I don’t want to breath too much of that in the first place, so any cutting of MDF is done in the open air anyway, as far as I’m concerned.

As far as oak, etc are concerned, whilst it’s perfectly possible to get dust from processing them, it’s such hard work that you don’t tend to get large amounts. And because it’s just dust settling on machines, rather than the heavier sawdust, the acid concentrations are significantly reduced. Okay, ideally you don’t want this stuff on machinery in the first place, but I have to say that the tools that I’ve used on oak, etc over the years don’t seem to have suffered in the slightest – except in terms of bluntness, of course…
29 March 2010 at 08:54 #50245
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
If you are turning oak etc you do get dust, try turning a bowl on a woodturning lathe if you have not experienced it. The final “sand papering” also produces enormous amounts of dust. definately a face mask job. Tools do not rust as they are normally cleaned off after use and do not stay in contact in “moist” conditions for a long period.
29 March 2010 at 10:15 #50248
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
I was thinking more about hand working it, certainly – but even if you produce large quantities of dust on a woodturning lathe (which I have done, but not for a very long time), it’s still relatively benign as long as it stays dry. The real problem with Tannic acid in dust, as far as I’m aware, is that if it lands on greasy surfaces, it breaks down the grease – not good.

Oh, and intriguingly, there’s at least one Tannic acid-based product that paasivates rust by breaking down the reaction of iron in air, and thereby reduces or prevents oxidation. And if you already have rust, it appears to convert it into a different compound altogether. All I know is that it’s called Exit Rust, but I’ve never actually tried it.
29 March 2010 at 16:36 #50264
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Rather than worry too much about oak dust (I only mentioned it out of interest) I would be more concerned about using a calico sheet to cover my equipment. The term ‘breathable’ is a little misleading, you really should describe it as porous perhaps.

In a damp atmosphere this will allow humid air to permeate and keep the level of humidity constant on both sides of the sheet. Added to that is the fact that the cotton that calico is made from is probably the most absorbent textile. It is capable of absorbing and retaining, large amounts of moisture. Hence it’s use for socks, underclothes and towels. It is probably the surface coatings you use that are protecting your machines rather than the calico.

Myford lathe covers are made of Polythene and the covers we used to buy for our Boxfords were made from clear pvc. These may trap some moisture but a relatively small volume which is not renewed and a dessicant such as silica gel will absorb that and as the space is comparatively sealed the moisture cannot be replaced. I always use polythene covers over winter in my quite damp garage workshop and I have no problems. Worth thinking about. I’d be glad to hear other comments about this.

Regards

Terry
30 March 2010 at 01:02 #50271
ZigFire
Participant
@zigfire
Terry that is interesting.

I may have to do a couple of bench experiments with some scrap iron and the covers you mention to see which one rusts first. I have had surface rust on older equipment and am now wondering if what you say rings true.

One question on the polythene covers, wouldn’t they really sweat up after using soluble oil or do you as a rule clean up most of the soluble oil and let the remainder that you can’t get to dry off before putting the cover on?

Cheers

Michael
30 March 2010 at 08:52 #50275
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
Another reason for using Neat cutting oils as opposed to suds?
30 March 2010 at 09:03 #50277
DMB
Participant
@dmb
Terry,

My wooden shed workshop contains mill in North East corner and Myford in North West corner and door in middle of North wall. Plastic Myford cover on lathe and very thick and very large plastic bag hood over mill + umpteen builders merchants sand and gravel bags seal front end + each side of table. Some years ago, I would go into workshop on a sunny morning and find mill table covered in water and rest of it dripping but Myford was dry! I uessed that hot sun on South end of shed caused sudden hike in air temp. causing mill to sweat.Shed now got South wall and roof covered in large bubble wrap between layers of felt. Whole shed covered in felt. Inside of roo f has 2″ polystyrene sheet. Inside walls have 3-ply and voids stuffed with fibreglass roof insulation. Mill has small heater which cured condensation and Myford no heater.
30 March 2010 at 09:14 #50279
DMB
Participant
@dmb
Terry,

My mill heater is home-made 3-ply box with 4 brass batten-holders in `bottom` and 4 x 60W old-style bulbs. Batten- holders connected in series so bulbs only glow but give off surprising amount of warmth yet use very little electric. This contraption switched on 24/7/52 except in hot weather, Jun-Aug especially if dry weather. The bech mounted Fobco Star drill has a builders bag hood and another folded in half on table, no heat.

Tools and materials on bench covered with large thin sheet of plastic ex-wrapper for roll of fibreglass roof insulation.Just draw it back to one end when I want to butcher some metal.

My method is cheap to run and VERY effective! By the way, it is a bit warmer down here in sunny Brighton!

John
30 March 2010 at 11:12 #50283
IanT
Participant
@iant
Since someone asked – I have old (folded up e.g. 4 layers) cotton dust sheets over my equipment in an unheated garage.

They seem to be effective, although I always try to give everything a wipe over with an oily rag before covering up. The covers themselves are also beginning to aquire a bit of oil on the insides.

I thought about using plastic ( I keep many of my smaller tools in freezer bags but these are squeezed to get the air mostly out and then sealed) but i worried that they could (in some undefined way) trap condensation (I have no real idea whether this might be so or not) whereas the sheets drape well over the areas I want to cover and (probably just as pertinent) were “to hand”.

Since I do undertake a small ammount of woodwork in the same area in the Winter, then dust protection is as important to me as rust – but (so far) they seem to be helping with both.
30 March 2010 at 12:51 #50285
David Clark 13
Participant
@davidclark13
Hi There

I buy silica gel from Ebay and use that in drawers, plastic boxes and plastic bags.

regards David
30 March 2010 at 19:33 #50288
Hilmar
Participant
@hilmar
Hello to All

I would not much worry about Oak and Oak dust on Your Lathe.

Oak gets cut on your Table saw , gets planed on Your Planer, worked with Your Hand Plane and put on Your Router Table all these are made from Cast Iron or Iron. Done for 40 plus Years and no rust. And on all these machines you see no oil or lube on the working surface, you would not like to contaminate the wood.

Now having said that, You also would not let a wet Oak Board sit on those dry Machines over Night. See also post from Kwil

Hilmar
30 March 2010 at 23:24 #50294
Ian Welford
Participant
@ianwelford58739
Wet oak attacks chisels if wood turning whilst yous turning! Turns the metal black and stains the wood as well.

I got a breathable cover from Tilgear ( as I recall) to cover the lathe with ‘ cos I wood turn as well. Works fine and is breathable.

Having said that I have an oil filled radiator set to 12 C in the workshop. Stops it getting too cold and hence prevents condensation. Also makes it much more desirable working temperature.

Basis health rule with dust is reduce/ eliminate at source if you can. The fine stuff ( sub 5 micron ) gets right down into your lungs and causes issues.

Worth asking any pharmacy or electrical store if they can let you have some silica gel sachets ( loads come with drugs or electrical products and are discarded. They can generally be renewed by GENTLY HEATING up to about 100 C in an oven- but put em on a tray because if they melt or burst SWMBO may not be best chuffed!

Ian
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