Five Phase Stepper Motor — I need to find a Driver

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Five Phase Stepper Motor — I need to find a Driver

This topic has 37 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 3 August 2015 at 10:30 by Michael Gilligan.

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18 October 2014 at 17:27 #15058
Michael Gilligan
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@michaelgilligan61133
Request for Advice _
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18 October 2014 at 17:27 #166894
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
I have just purchased this superb mechanism from a fellow microscopist, who saved it from the Skip !!

For very good reasons, it has a Five Phase [ten wire] Stepper Motor; so I now need to find a suitable Driver for it.

Can anyone please suggest a modestly priced Driver Module, or a suitable DIY circuit ? … Frankly, I am out of my depth with this one.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Here is the datasheet [in German ] … it's the one in the Right-hand column on the first page.

Edit: and here is the explanation of why 5-Phase is Good.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/10/2014 17:31:36

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 18/10/2014 17:33:05
18 October 2014 at 23:18 #166935
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
Michael..
I have had to do it ( 3 phase) .
I had to do it with an audrino …
The programme is simple enough.

You will need 5 1/2 H bridge drives..but it depends on voltage and current requirements. .but the ( iirc ) l293 provides 4 half bridge. .at 2A each coil..
Simple break out boards exist…
Biggest trick will be getting the adjacent nodes sorted.. ( they are generally used in the five sided version of “DELTA” rather than star..)…
Let me know if you need further. ..the programme is simple enough but you need to already doing the audrino thing…again if you need help…
18 October 2014 at 23:24 #166936
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
So one audrino nano..two l293 boards…
About ?10…
What do you want from drive. ..?
Do you need micro stepping. . never tryed that but these units at 2000 steps per rev plus gears I suspect single steps are plenty small enough..
19 October 2014 at 06:40 #166946
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Jason,

Many thanks for this.

Last night, I did eventually find a helpful article … but my electronic construction skills are not in his league!

I would certainly welcome your guidance, and will send you a P.M. this afternoon. I have no experience with the Arduino, but I am very willing to learn, and I know there is plenty of tutorial material around.

In the first instance, I'm sure that full steps will suffice: I am led to believe that the unit came from a custom-built laser scanning microscope … so my humble aspirations in the field of optical photomicrography should be an order of magnitude [or two] less demanding.

MichaelG.

…………….

For info. Here is another photo of the unit:
19 October 2014 at 09:35 #166958
John Haine
Participant
@johnhaine32865
The motor is almost certainly a standard frame size. Measure the spacing of the flange screw holes in decimal inches and multiply by 10. Probably get 14, 17, or 23. Small new steppers are quite cheap, eg from Zapp Automation. Replace motor with standard 2 phase type with 2 windings and use a standard controller.
19 October 2014 at 10:30 #166966
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
As to replacing with two phase bipolar or even a unipolar motor…These would indeed be simpler to drive…for unipolar you could even use electro mechanical switch…

Driving the multiphase “steppers” isn’t black magic…and these are ment to be lower mechanical noise than conventional hybrid steppers. ..a plus..
Bear in mind all phases are energised in one direction or other all the time and steps are” smaller…”..this means you are closer to the holding” situation ” state..at all points of the cycle…
.
19 October 2014 at 10:31 #166967
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
As to replacing with two phase …DING DANG IT DOUBLE POST

Edited By jason udall on 19/10/2014 10:33:31
19 October 2014 at 11:02 #166971
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by John Haine on 19/10/2014 09:35:36:

The motor is almost certainly a standard frame size. Measure the spacing of the flange screw holes in decimal inches and multiply by 10. Probably get 14, 17, or 23. Small new steppers are quite cheap, eg from Zapp Automation. Replace motor with standard 2 phase type with 2 windings and use a standard controller.

.

John,

Thanks for the thought, but …

Please see the second link in my opening post.

… this is a rather special piece of kit [I already have plenty of two phase motors]

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2014 11:04:18
19 October 2014 at 11:43 #166981
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
Michael… my three phase..uses a slightly different protocol than you link to the oriental motor co..
And as I said no micro stepping.
.will pm you my code and anotations for three phase
And modified ver ( untried) for five phase.

The driver. Modules are pretty ubiquitous I got mine from one of many on amozon
.ditto the nano (audrino) and breakout board..the latter just makes wiring simpler
19 October 2014 at 11:46 #166982
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
Btw looks like either an encoder or a rapids motor hidden behind thestepper….
19 October 2014 at 11:48 #166983
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Thanks again, Jason

I will send a P.M. with my eMail address, which may be more convenient.

MichaelG.
19 October 2014 at 11:56 #166986
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by jason udall on 19/10/2014 11:46:07:
Btw looks like either an encoder or a rapids motor hidden behind thestepper….

.

Its actually a clutch; and the two "gears" that are visible are flat belts [or maybe timing belts, used inside-out].

These two photos were provided by the seller … I will take some detail shots next week.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Machine Components Corp. were very helpful in identifying the "slip clutch" for me … as a special item, which is not in their regular catalog.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2014 12:00:34

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 19/10/2014 12:01:06
19 October 2014 at 12:02 #166988
Mark C
Participant
@markc
Michael, "custom-built laser scanning microscope" does that mean you found someone who built a LSCM (laser scanning confocal microscope) and then dismantled it? I ask as I have had some involvement with LSCM's and they tend not to be your average shed project!

Mark
19 October 2014 at 12:38 #166993
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Mark C on 19/10/2014 12:02:43:

Michael, "custom-built laser scanning microscope" does that mean you found someone who built a LSCM (laser scanning confocal microscope) and then dismantled it? I ask as I have had some involvement with LSCM's and they tend not to be your average shed project!

Mark

.

Mark,

Not quite …

Possibly my error of interpretation … it now appears that although the drive assembly is British, the microscope may have been more "production" than I thought.

… I will send you a P.M.

MichaelG.
21 October 2014 at 14:35 #167236
John McNamara
Participant
@johnmcnamara74883
Hi Michael

5 phase stepper I just did a bit of research….

Found these?

**LINK**

Regards
John
21 October 2014 at 14:52 #167238
simondavies3
Participant
@simondavies3
Jason,

Very interested in your Arduino controller – but have you tried micro-stepping? Reason is that I would like to take the step size on my Emco 5PC CNC lathe to a smaller value than the current which is set by half stepping the 5 phase steppers.

The electronics and the Arduino side I can cope with but I have not seen any information on how to do micro-stepping. Vexta supply 5 step micro-stepping drivers but they have very little information to go with them I think – and extreme care appears to be necessary to select the correct version.

Regards,

Simon
21 October 2014 at 15:17 #167245
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by John McNamara on 21/10/2014 14:35:06:

Hi Michael

5 phase stepper I just did a bit of research….

Found these?

**LINK**

Regards
John

.

Many thanks, John

Those are astonishingly low prices compared with what I found.

… Must investigate further.

MichaelG.
21 October 2014 at 17:21 #167265
Another JohnS
Participant
@anotherjohns
Very interested in your Arduino controller – but have you tried micro-stepping? Reason is that I would like to take the step size on my Emco 5PC CNC lathe to a smaller value than the current which is set by half stepping the 5 phase steppers

Simon – off topic, but on the LinuxCNC mailing list, Sam Solik showed an Emco CNC lathe converted to LinuxCNC using the original electronics. Might be of interest?
21 October 2014 at 18:21 #167276
simondavies3
Participant
@simondavies3
John,

PM'd you to ensure the topic is not further cluttered!

Simon
21 October 2014 at 18:30 #167277
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Posted by Simon0362 on 21/10/2014 18:21:31:

John,

PM'd you to ensure the topic is not further cluttered!

Simon

.

Simon,

Feel free to clutter …

Jason has pointed me in the direction of Arduino and, despite John McNamara's amazing finds, I'm pretty sure that's the way I'm going. … Anything broadly in the same area is good by me !!

It could all come in useful some day.

MichaelG.
21 October 2014 at 19:17 #167280
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
To all and any..
” my” arduino stepper solution is just a modified version of the stepper.cpp in the arduino library. ..you are welcome my feeble attempts to expand this for 3 and 5 phase with no warranty esp. Since I can’t test in your application. .
As to micro stepping. .it should be possible but frankly with 2000 steps per rev..it might be redundant….
I don’t feel inclined to apply micro stepping to these motors….with two phase motors the vector sum is plausible. .to extend this to five terms….urhg…
But the files are there. .maybe you can expand the field…
21 October 2014 at 19:23 #167281
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
Btw..once wrote a one phase drive for amotor..
1 phase..single coil…
Typicaly used in clocks and watches…
..customer wanted a clock that stretched “time” depending on time of day…
24 hours in a day..but varible seconds to each minute…
So time just before lunch or home time slooows…
Customers can be odd..
31 July 2015 at 22:30 #198671
jason udall
Participant
@jasonudall57142
Forgive the necropost

I have discovered the canonical stepper.cpp and .h library now included 5 phase drive.

Also for 3 phase steppers there exists a single chip solution..stk673-010..
31 July 2015 at 22:55 #198674
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Jason,

Thanks for your continued interest.

Not sure if I told you, but I contacted the author of that paper that I told you about:

He couldn't find the PIC code that he had originally written, but very kindly persuaded one of his students to re-write it for me !! … This world-wide communication is wonderful, when it gets you in touch with good people.

To my shame, I haven't built the driver yet [insert long list of excuses] … but I have great confidence.

MichaelG.
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