Was this the birth of CNC ?

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Was this the birth of CNC ?

This topic has 29 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 18 December 2011 at 00:47 by Billy Mills.

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7 December 2011 at 19:54 #79423
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
O.K. it’s not CNC as we know it … but this may have been the first small step; and, I believe, deserves recognition.

See Fig.14 and the description that starts on line 38 of page 3.
“The feed may also be effected electrically …”

Does anyone know of any earlier example [prior art] in this area?

MichaelG.

Sorry I cannot paste a hyperlink using the iPad, but here is the URL

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=189406420A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=4&date=18940602&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_gb

… alternatively, go to http://gb.espacenet.com/
select “Advanced Search” and put GB189406420 in the “Publication number:” box.
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7 December 2011 at 19:54 #14963
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Taylor Hobson patent No. 6420, dated 1894
7 December 2011 at 20:59 #79429
Billy Mills
Participant
@billymills
Think that many would suggest the Jacquard loom (1801) as a major step in the evolution of CNC as it was a machine that followed a sequential stored program which could be interchanged with other programs to produce different products.

Wedgewood used a series of special lathe like machines which had a stored program in the form of cams for shaping clay. He also used a rotating pantograph follower to reduce the size of large medalion artwork to produce very detailed moulds. This same device is still used in Mints to produce master dies for coining and has prior art to the TH patent in my view.

Charles Babbage also devised an array of mechanical devices to compute and print mathematical tables automatically, the difference engines start being built around 1822 whilst the Analytical engines work stopped with his death in 1871. The later was a mechanical digital machine with a central processing unit, punched cards, sequential operation and nearly all of the attributes of a digital computer of today.

So I would not say that the TH patent was very significant.
7 December 2011 at 22:09 #79439
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Fair comments, Billy.

I must confess, I should have put my emphasis on the electrical aspect.

MichaelG.
7 December 2011 at 22:41 #79440
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
My original post was poorly titled; and Billy’s response is, of course, correct.

The real point that I had in mind was:
This is the first Patent that I have seen which proposes an electrical sensor and an electrical feed on a machine tool.

MichaelG.
7 December 2011 at 22:42 #79441
John McNamara
Participant
@johnmcnamara74883
Hi All

Jacquard came way after the the early music box, musical clock makers, and mechanical church bell ringers.

Some even stored their programs on disk…(Steel disk)

Search for “Music box history”

Not yet proven but a lot of work is being done using light for computing.

Search for Optical computing

Such is evolution……….

Cheers

John

Edited By John McNamara on 07/12/2011 22:49:12

Edited By John McNamara on 07/12/2011 22:53:28
8 December 2011 at 00:20 #79444
ady
Participant
@ady
There was the loom chappies who used huge punch cards to produce various patterns in materials.

I believe it was on “industrial revelations”

Like those auto playing pianos in cowboy movies.

All electricity ever did, was make things faster, more reliable, more compact, and more convenient.

Babbages’ work was mechanical computers, and they worked.

Everything is kind of relative to your own environment.

The Maya(or those Aztec dudes) created one of the most accurate astronomical calendars in human history with a number system using base 19

…they didn’t invent a wheel though, everything got carried on your head and they cut out your heart and threw you down some steps if you were a POW.

The Romans were incredible…and also had one of the most seriously crappy number counting systems in the history of human civilisation.

They still managed to build some of the best structures anyone has ever built in the history of mankind.

As I say. It’s all relative

Edited By ady on 08/12/2011 00:34:27
8 December 2011 at 12:37 #79467
Billy Mills
Participant
@billymills
John, the Loom MAKES products which is a substitution for human labour, it does not make errors because of human weakness, it reproduces the stored pattern on the wooden strips in a very expensive material ( silk) whilst being able to make exact copies repeditivly.

That is essentially what we use CNC machines for today. It was very infuential because it was very widely used to make very big profits and had a big impact on hand loom weavers.

Making sounds mechanically starts with clocks, they get more complex but never result in the production of tangable saleable products other than more clocks. Although there were a few musical snuff boxes before 1801 the Polyphon really dates to around 1860, not really getting going till 1880’s about the same time as pneumatic player piano production starts in Chicago on an industrial scale.

Ady- yes the Jacquard loom was on Industrial Revalations, the data was stored on wooden slats with holes drilled (or not) to produce a binary pattern to select threads on a loom. You changed the pack of slats ( which were held together with string) to change the pattern.

Michael- Ahh electric! well that changes everything, but it all hinges on what you mean by CNC. If it is a computer controlled machine then Babbage wins as his mathematical table machine computed then printed the results on paper to produce a saleable physical product but it was not electric. CNC does not need electricity, it’s just that nearly all CNC machines use it at present.

Billy.
8 December 2011 at 17:25 #79479
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Automata were all the rage in Roman Egypt. Have a look at Heron of Alexander (10-70AD). He built a fully automated Greek Theatre (including thunder storms etc). It used cams rollers and cables. It was driven by weights and was pre-programmable. He also made a weight driven truck which could be pre-programmed to change direction. It could also be re-programmed.

Ok it was not digitally controlled, but the basic elements of automation were present

Rgds

Dick
8 December 2011 at 20:07 #79502
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Billy beat me to a reply.

the thing about the Jacquard loom was that it was programmable manufacturing. Plenty of copy lathes and automata, and also music boxes etc. thet could play different tunes before 1801, but Jacquard had programable machines making things first, it seems.

Neil
9 December 2011 at 10:47 #79545
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
There is an example of a punch card loom in the museum in Paisley, I remember seeing it when I was over in 1984 visiting family, it supprised me, I had’nt imagined such a mechanisim, I new of player pianos etc. Ian S C
10 December 2011 at 16:10 #79642
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Have a look at this – Not bad for 50 AD. Think what old Heron could have done with a better power unit!

Rdgs

Dick
10 December 2011 at 18:07 #79647
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
Nice one, Richard

MichaelG.
10 December 2011 at 18:42 #79653
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Big difference between NC and CNC.

In a Numerical Control machine, the program is fed to the machine through magnetic tapes, punched tapes or cards or other such media. The original NC machines were essentially basic machine tools which were modified to have motors for movement along the axes.

In a Computer Numerical Controlled machine, the machines are interfaced with computers. This makes them more versatile in the sense that, suppose a change in dimension of a part is required. In a NC machine, you would have had to change the program in the tape and then feed it to the machine again. But in a CNC machine, you just change a variable in the computer and your modification is done!!

John S.
10 December 2011 at 19:08 #79656
Michael Gilligan
Participant
@michaelgilligan61133
John,

As I admitted much earlier; my thread title was wrong.
… Unfortunately it cannot be changed.

I was so pleased to find the electrical sensing and feed, in that Taylor Hobson patent, that I wanted to share it.

It was neither NC nor CNC … but interesting and, I thought, relevant.

MichaelG.
11 December 2011 at 00:32 #79682
Billy Mills
Participant
@billymills
Michael – thanks for highlighting the TH patent, another thread to weave into the story. As Sir John says the addition of a PC into the controler role does add to a simple self-acting machine running from a set in stone stored program and makes possible desirable additions such as backlash correction in software and setting up subs which can be called a number of times.

However some of the mechanical machines that are very rarely seen today – such as Swiss Auto’s and Britans were very effective in repetition production and have some very clever features e.g. the tool support bar in the Britan or the chucking arrangement in the Auto. They are well worth looking at for those interested in machine tools.

Billy.
11 December 2011 at 11:45 #79692
John Stevenson 1
Participant
@johnstevenson1
Billy, very good points.

My last employed job before taking on the mantle of being self employed again purely so I can offend as many customers as possible, was in a factory that made piano parts, namely keyboards and the actions.

We had many fascinating machines there that worked to very fine tolerances in wood, the max deviation on drilled holes was 1/2 a thou, no not a typo.

Some of these machines dated back to 1890 and were in daily use. The only difference was these not sprouted upwards of 10 motors instead of line shafting although it was still in the building.

Towards the end we had some modern machinery commissioned, part mechanical, part pneumatic, part electronic and all driven by a PLC [ Programmable logic controller ].

These were a total flop. they were slower than the Victorian machines and not as accurate.

I baby sat these for two years trying to fault find them, the main faults on speed were the mechanical ones with 16,845,321 cams performed every move with the minimum of delay. Drills swung into position just missing a saw blade by 100 thou and were drilling before the saw blade was back home.

The modern ones relying on limit switches had to wait for a safe signal before moving and milliseconds were lost at each move, over a day this added up to many parts.

Accuracy was harder to pin point and it took hiring a high speed camera to compare machines.

The cam driven Victorian machines moved each part or tool into position and held it there by the cam pushing onto a backstop.

The new ones relied on air cylinders to push into position and an air clamp to hold the part, tools were pushed onto back stops.

When we saw the film slowed down what was happening was the uncertain acceleration of the cylinders were alloying the part to bounce off the back stop then get clamped in this position, each part being held differently.

Damping down didn’t help much but affected speed even worse. After two years I scrapped these, pulled them to pieces and built new machines with some of the parts.

Basically these were copies of the Victorian machines with certain changes like closed cams instead of open cams so we could run faster, roller cam followers instead of slippers and 24,000 rpm 400 Hz motors for drilling small holes instead of loads of belts and pulleys to get to speed.

The Victorian machines did 19 parts per minute, the PLC machines did 15 and the new cam one did 38 although by looking at the parts you knew which one had come off which machine, the Victorian parts were still a better quality.

John S.
11 December 2011 at 13:42 #79697
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Posted by Richard Parsons on 10/12/2011 16:10:53:

Have a look at this – Not bad for 50 AD. Think what old Heron could have done with a better power unit!

Rdgs

Dick

Hi Dick,

He did! He invented the first steam reaction turbine known, his Aeolipile, , simple but operative. I always found it strange that ancient Greeks, clever and ingenious as they were, never thought never to put it to a real practical purpose.

I think that there as an example in Stan Bray’s book on model steam engines if I remember correctly.

Best regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 11/12/2011 13:46:19
11 December 2011 at 18:06 #79714
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Ah Terry

Heron of Alexandria was employed in the Department of Applied Miracles by the Association of Local Temples. His Aeolipile was interesting but of low power. I have seen an example of it made from a beer can using a nail to punch the holes and as bearings

A form of it was used to turn a set of dancers which may have been very similar to the Zoetrope a very early machine which creates the illusion of movements. He was made the famous Automatic Bird Garden.

Some of his work was based on a ‘Wash and Brush’ up machine for use in temples. It was inventedby Philo of ByzantiumYou poped a coin into it and a hand gave you a lump of soap/pumice. After a little delay it filled a bowl with water so you could wash your hands.

I will not go into old Leonardo’s Lion. Nor the home pointing chariot invented by the Chinese which was basically just a differential gear

I think that Heron’s use of string, rollers and pegs really takes the biscuit. I might make something as I can get wood, nails and string.
11 December 2011 at 19:16 #79720
Billy Mills
Participant
@billymills
Thanks Sir John. Perhaps there was a golden period in machine design from -say- 1700-1930 in which a lot of clever ideas were applied to mechanical machines by people who were very skilled in metalworking. The ambition and scope of some machines is very impressive. Two months ago I visited a very good museum in Germany which was devoted to printing from prehistory to date. The size and complexity of Composing machines and some presses was way beyond what we deal with in our humble workshops. These machines – like John’s example- will often run for 50-150 years with only minor repairs. Something that will never happen with today’s CNC machines.

I also visited a wood veneering factory to buy some very specialised ply. They use a pealing lathe which is now 60 years old but, It weighs around 30 tons and cuts a ribbon of wood up to a Km long in one go. The MD said that the machine is not replaceable. Old does not mean backwards, it often signifies superior design and build.

Billy.
11 December 2011 at 21:17 #79734
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
I read about an americal college lab tech who tried to make a glass aeropile for demonstrating the effect, after considerble effort they go it to work by suspending it on a magnetic ball bearing. They seemed to think getting it to work was a great achievement.

I also read an article in ME about someone who made one very simply. It worked of course, and I’m sure the difference was down to copper boiler and sensible matching of jet size to steam rate.

Neil
12 December 2011 at 06:43 #79747
Richard Parsons
Participant
@richardparsons61721
Stub Here is a very nice example of Heron’s Aeolipile. What I want to find out about is the levitating chariot. Or was it a trick?

Heron was employed to make worshipers in the various temples go Oh-Ah! and incidentally put coins in the collection boxes.

The Greeks knew about static electricity and the Babylonians built batteries. Even the word Electron is the Greek name for Amber.

If you want to talk about computers how about the Antikythera here

Dick
12 December 2011 at 20:57 #79771
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
hi Richard,

Try here as well,

We used to build models of the Chinese south pointing mechanism with meccano gearing, very effective.

Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 12/12/2011 20:59:27
13 December 2011 at 13:03 #79789
Billy Mills
Participant
@billymills
The south pointing machine only had one little problem, although the gears were a digital ( or toothed) device, the wheels had an analog diameter so unless they were exactly the same you ended up going around in circles which is not good if you are in a featureless dessert. Perhaps that’s why they switched to loadstone.

I’m not knocking the craftmanship however. The Terracotta Warriors are absolutely amazing, everyone is an individual, the regiment includes horses too. There was also some very high quality bronze casting in that period, much better than what was happening in Europe at that time. None of this has anything much to do with CNC machines.

Billy.
15 December 2011 at 20:08 #79902
Sub Mandrel
Participant
@submandrel
Are any plans of the antikythera mechanism (good enough to make a copy) available?

Neil
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