Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment (milling machine slotter)

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Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment (milling machine slotter)

Home Forums Manual machine tools Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment (milling machine slotter)

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  • #624227
    Jan Raap
    Participant
      @janraap84676

      I got a Victoria slotter/slotting attachment with my Elliott TV2 milling machine.
      The problem is, I don't have a clue how it is supposed to work/hold tools.

      Let's start with a photo of what it looks like now.
      Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment 1

      This is the adjustment knob with the SLOT and RADIUS settings

      Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment 2

      When I took it apart the first time to clean it all up the cam fell out so I don't know what the original setting was.

      Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment 3

      I believe the cam operates on the bottom area of the slot on the cast housing.

      Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment 4

      It came with a (looks homemade) tool/tool holder.
      Which can be removed by loosening a grub screw.

      ictoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment5

      Victoria Punch Shaping and Slotting Attachment 6

      I made a quick video to show the difference between the 'SLOT' and 'RADIUS' settings.

      Now the questions:
      How do I use this contraption (SLOT/RADIUS)?
      How do I secure tools to it?
      Any recommendations for tools to buy so I can cut internal keyways on pulleys etc?
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      #14726
      Jan Raap
      Participant
        @janraap84676
        #624249
        Jan Raap
        Participant
          @janraap84676

          A kind member on another forum posted the patent application.

           

          Can anybody decipher it?

           

          I will add the drawings to this thread when I am back to my pc for ease.

          Edited By Jan Raap on 09/12/2022 18:44:55

          #624259
          Clive Foster
          Participant
            @clivefoster55965

            Once you have translated the patent description of operation language, seems to be a rule that such descriptions shall be totally incomprehensible, its fairly obvious what's going on.

            Designed for making punches comprising a stout shaped projection to make a hole extending from a larger parent bar.

            When you have the thing set to slotting mode it runs as a normal slotter with the tool cutting on the downstroke and angling back on the upstroke to drag over the work without cutting. Just like a normal shaper.

            Ordinarily shaper and slotting tools use a clapper box to permit this angle away from the work with a pivot a bit above the tool holder.

            The device described in the patent appears to have the tool fixed in a simple rotating shaft running in trunnions. Which behaves in pretty much the same way as a clapper box when in slotting mode. Not the normal way of doing things as a clapper box has a much more advantageous distribution of forces enabling much heavier cuts to be taken.

            The radius mode is especially suitable for making punches. It produces a curve blending the working part of the punch with the parent material. A sharp corner or roughly formed join is a stress raiser making the puch weaker and likely to break.

            In radius mode the main part of the punch being made is cut using a straight downwards stroke, just as in slotting mode. The cam rotates the toolholder rotates during the last part of the stroke taking the tool away from the work leaving a radius at the end where the shaped punch joins the parent bar. Having the tool in a rotating shaft carried in trunnions lets the tool swing through 90° giving a clean radius between the punch and parent material. The actual radius being set by the projection of the tool tip relative to the centre of the trunnions in which the carrier shaft rotates.

            The rotating shaft appears to take a standard piece of square tool steel. Lord knows what the thing you have is intended to do.

            The diagrams in the patent are pretty good so it ought to be possible to figure out the relative orientations of parts.

            The design isn't quite as clever as it seems because there are some severe restrictions on work size and shapes if the beast is to work as designed. In particular cuts have to be quite light or the tool will be forced out of cut. Significantly less versatile than the standard breed but what it does do it does well.

            Clive

            Edited By Clive Foster on 09/12/2022 20:00:00

            #624273
            Anonymous
              Posted by Clive Foster on 09/12/2022 19:49:46:

              …such descriptions shall be totally incomprehensible…

              That's the art of patent writing; include all the information but in a form that is difficult to follow.

              With regards to slotting internal keyways I don't think tooling is readily available to buy. I just grind the shape on the end of a short length of HSS, or use a push broach.

              Andrew

              #624283
              Clive Foster
              Participant
                @clivefoster55965

                Andrew

                I don't think that particular style of shaper / slotter would be very good at cutting internal keyways. The geometrical limitations of a rotating tool carrier rather than a clapper box would seem to seriously limit its useful stroke.

                Jan

                I had another go at reading the patent.

                It seems that the important part about the radius cutting capability comes at the end of the (approximately) 200 word sentence describing claim 1 :-

                "responsive to said continued movement of said driving member to rotate said tool holder in a direction forwardly and away from the workpiece to make an arcuate cut."

                Translated into more normal English "the tool rotates away from the main, straight, cut as it comes to the end of the stroke."

                Sharpening the tool is going to be tricky because, unless I've completely mis-construed the geometry, the tool is horizontal during the initial straight cut with the lower face leading. So the sharp edge is on the bottom. When the tool swings away from the straight cut there needs to be enough clearance behind the cutting edge to avoid the curved face being cut.

                Essentially the same problem as getting enough bottom clearance on a boring tool in a small hole.

                The result would seem to be, by shaper standards, a rather weak tool.

                Clive

                Edited By Clive Foster on 09/12/2022 22:58:33

                #624294
                Jan Raap
                Participant
                  @janraap84676

                  Thank you Clive and Andrew.

                  So far, it looks like I will need to:

                  1. Get a way of holding a cutting tool

                  2. Grind my own HSS cutting tool

                  3. Do loads of experiments until I have got it cutting keyways

                  #624311
                  Clive Foster
                  Participant
                    @clivefoster55965

                    Jan

                    If you are using the radius capability you will need a short piece of tool steel held directly in the rotating shaft as shown in the patent drawings. I imagine the slot matches a (then?) standard imperial size so it can be relatively securely held by the grub screw.

                    For simple slotting I guess some sort of offset holder will be needed to put the holding shaft rotating axis in a similar position relative to the tool tip as the common clapper box system. On a normal shaper the clapper box pivot is significantly behind the tool tip position. Maybe up to a couple of inches on my Elliot 10M depending on tool size. I'm not familiar with vertical slotters but I imagine the geometry is similar.

                    Somewhere in one of my books there is a discussion of the engineering reasons for this arrangement.

                    The simple grub screw appears much less secure than the hefty bolt usually found on shaper tool posts.

                    I imagine tooling of similar shape to that used on the Bridgeport E head would be needed. As the E head is relatively common in home shop enviroments some information can be gleaned from the internet. Here are some nice pictures of the E head clearly showing how the clapper box is arranged **LINK**

                    https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/bridgeport-e-head-or-shaper-head-help.136483/

                    Its clear that the actual tool tip is offset relative to the clapper box pivot. I imagine that a dog leg tool holder could be made to replicate that geometry. Round shank with a flat on the tool to take a grub screw worked for Bridgeport so should be fine on yours. The real Victoria tooling is probably different but geometry must have been similar.

                    Clive

                    #624319
                    Jan Raap
                    Participant
                      @janraap84676

                      Clive,

                      Thank you very much for the information and time you have taken to write it all out.

                      You have been a great help!

                      #624329
                      Anonymous
                        Posted by Clive Foster on 09/12/2022 22:57:35:

                        I don't think that particular style of shaper / slotter would be very good at cutting internal keyways.

                        In the text for the US patent it clearly states that the unit can be used for simple slotting. Essentially the two slides are locked together so that rotation of the tool does not occur towards the end of the stroke.

                        Andrew

                        #624384
                        Clive Foster
                        Participant
                          @clivefoster55965

                          Andrew

                          Figure 10 of the patent shows the device configured for ordinary straight slotting with a fixed tool held in a slotted, cylindrical, 'lantern" / "American" style tool post. The tool post also holds the two slides in alignment but has no provision to release the tool pressure on the return stroke, as a clapper box does, so the tool will drag on the return stroke.

                          Which will work but is not ideal.

                          As shown the arrangement also forces the tool tip to divine its support at rather greater distance from the holder than is the case with a Bridgeport E and similar clapper box equipped heads. Dealing with relatively long, somewhat slender tools is regrettably common when cutting keyways or splines in smaller bores so minimising tool length is a desirable attribute of a machine intended to regularly do such jobs.

                          Seems to me that, as designed and patented, the ability to do ordinary slotting is to meet an occasional need rather than regular work. So a relatively inexpensive but objectively imperfect design would be satisfactory. I'm a little surprised that an accessory clapper box type tool holder along the lines of the Bridgeport E head was not offered as an accessory for folk needing to regularily do internal slots. I guess it would have been too expensive for too small a market given that the machine is specifically aimed at the punch forming market where the need for ordinary slotting would be rare. The basic device is clearly going to be rather more expensive than an ordinary slotting head so getting one to do significant amounts of ordinary slotting work would not be economic.

                          Jan

                          If you contemplate doing ordinary internal slotting and vertical shaping up to a sharp shoulder I think it might well be worth the effort to make a clapper box style tool holder along the lines of that fitted to the Bridgeport E head. Not a vastly complex project. Basically an accurate U section base with a close fitted pin and inline tool holder held on by a shouldered bolt fitting the holes that lock the slides together.

                          I've found a few more references to show you the tooling a Bridgeport E uses.

                          Photos at the end of this thread :- **LINK**

                          https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/bridgeport-shaping-attachment-tools.155587/

                          Catalogue picture of the Bridgeport set along with show off specimen jobs on page 8 here :- **LINK**

                          http://manuals.chudov.com/Bridgeport/attachments-cat-30.pdf

                          More pictures of Bridgeport tooling here :- **LINK**

                          https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/bridgeport-shaper-head-cutters-help-identifying.67069/

                          Just about possible to infer dimensions of the Bridgeport set from the drawings on this page :- **LINK**

                          http://manuals.chudov.com/Bridgeport/Shaper-Attachment/pg3.jpg

                          If you don't fancy doing a clapper box there is no reason why you couldn't make up a solid carrier extending down to the end of the ram drilled on the end to take that style of tool. Without a clapper box pivot the tools will drag on the return stroke and will quickly loose their sharp edge on harder material such as steel. On softer materials they are likely to pick up and adversely affect the finish.

                          But they will work.

                          Folk like us rarely need to do more than one or two slots at a time so even a short sharp edge lifetime should suffice.

                          Clive

                          Edited By Clive Foster on 10/12/2022 19:12:23

                          #628280
                          Jan Raap
                          Participant
                            @janraap84676

                            Clive,

                            Sorry for the very late reply, that is all great information.

                            I have not yet had a chance to look at the slotting attachment again. It is on the massive 'to do' list.

                            I very much like the idea of making a clapper box at some point. However, I need some more machining practice and a DRO on the mill first.

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