AN UNFINISHED PROJECT !

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AN UNFINISHED PROJECT !

Home Forums Manual machine tools AN UNFINISHED PROJECT !

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  • #14571
    noel shelley
    Participant
      @noelshelley55608
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      #599337
      noel shelley
      Participant
        @noelshelley55608

        The machine to which I will be refering to appeared on here as a Senior Mill but was in fact a Centec 2B. It was on Easylife Auctions. Well, I landed up with it – now I've got to get up and running ! It has an underdrive cabinet that has sadly been narrowed, taking off the lip and I will use it with coolant, so thats one job ! It has the orginal switch along with a dewhurst reverser that is needed (see later ) , a new 1Hp 4pole 1Ph motor that is currently mounted on the side, this will be rubber mounted in the cabinet. The bolts for the knee mount were missing, no problem ! The table looks new but is 17.75" X 5" not 25" as should be. The Y axis gib is missing but all ways look very good. It has very well made 3" swivelling machine vice, but the handle is missing. The arbor and it's support are missing, though the over arm I have. The pedestal, gear box etc all seem ok and in good condition. It's crowning glory is the Mk3 verticle quill feed head, with an autoloc type imperial collet holder Without a reverser the VH runs the wrong way !.

        Now the questions ! what will make a good gib strip ? 3/16 or 1/4 silver steel strip suitably fashioned to fit ? Did the 2B have a bearing or bush in the arbor support ? Are the supports available ? Can a 2MT arbour suitable for this machine be bought ? I see that ARC do a stub arbor that would work near the gearbox. The motor has a 2.25" dia double pulley – the gearbox has a 5.125" double pulley this seems wrong, i would think they should be the same , or close ie 5"ish. Gear speed 6 seems to be 1:1 = 1400rpm, The current belt ratio is 1:0.45 = would only give 650rpm.

        I have an INT30 arbour that could be shortened, and married to a 2MT soft arbor, I also have the matching support that could be altered to fit I think ! Is there anything special about the drawbars, or will 3/8" BSW or UNC threaded rod do ? Needless to say guards will have to be made.

        I have Tony Griffiths manual with a good exploded diagram but sadly no key to parts. This shows an INT 30 arbour and gearbox shaft !

        Answers,advice or comment on the above will be greatly appreciated, I'm new to milling ! Noel.

        #599357
        Martin King 2
        Participant
          @martinking2

          Hi Noel,

          Glad you got back OK with Centec mill, now the fun starts!

          Thanks for stopping by and helping me with the wiring on the linisher, all running OK now but a couple of niggles to sort out.

          Cheers, Martin

          #599380
          Nigel Graham 2
          Participant
            @nigelgraham2

            I think you'd be lucky to find an arbor support all on its own, looking for a good home. I owned one of the Centec 2s for a while, and had to make the drop-bracket. A bronze bush is fine, and probably as original. Race bearings really need slightly tight fits on both shaft and housing, not a sliding fit on the shaft.

            I finish-bored my drop-bracket in-situ for concentricity in-situ, using a small boring-head with MT2 taper, and feeding the bracket in by clamping it to the over-arm, clamping to angle-plates on the table, and letting the over-arm act as a slide.

            Gibs: Use bright mild-steel, not silver-steel (gauge-plate). Mild steel and cast-iron work well together, if kept lubricated.

            Gearing: that 650rpm seems much too high, if anything, for a horizontal mill, though low for using small drills and end-mills. I assume the gears are original. Does Tony Griffith's literature tell you the speed range?

            Arbour: similarly. You might be lucky but like the bracket, I think they'd be sold alongside poultry-dentures. Determine the length and see if someone like Home & Workshop Machinery or similar, who advertise in ME and MEW, have anything to suit. I obtained one by that means for my Denbigh horizontal, of about the same size as the Centec. Otherwise I think it's a matter of making one from precision-ground stock: the critical part being concentricity and parallelism of shaft and taper axes.

            The stub-arbours sold by ARC etc are fine for their purpose – in a vertical mill – but may be a bit short even for these smaller horizontal mills. Even so it's worth seeing if they will suit this machine. You would need make a lathe-type centre for it, though, as it does not have a bearing spigot – and watch out for the thread direction. I had one that would unscrew itself under normal cutting load, on a vertical mill.

            #599389
            duncan webster 1
            Participant
              @duncanwebster1

              here's a picture of the speed selector plate. This applies to the horizontal, the vertical might be slightly different, but not a lot.

              I'd leave the motor on the side. I the cabinet is extremely inaccessible, and single phase makes the cabinet drum horribly. You might get away with rubber mounting, but adjusting the belt tension laid flat on your back with your head inside the cabinet is not my idea of a fun afternoon.

              The belts on mine are not very accessible, if no-one gets back to you pm me and I'll have a goimg_20220526_180040.jpg

              #599392
              noel shelley
              Participant
                @noelshelley55608

                Hi Nigel, thanks, I have plenty of mild steel so that's that sorted. Since the machine is not wired and has no arbor or support bracket, horizontal milling was not an option and the small motor pulley seems odd for vertical giving a low speed. The speed range is 85, 195, 395, 595, 890, 1400, these speeds seem based on a 1 to 1 ratio from the motor not o.45 as is. I have 1" plate and oxy cutting gear and lots of 25mm self aligning bearings so I can feel a plan coming on ! Once the vertical head works a dovetale cutter will see to one end + a bearing and putting a cutter on the table an arbour can be made and trued, is a keyway needed, or is that luxury ? If I really got carried away I could cast one in Bronze and forget the bush , or speak to friends and get it done in SG iron. I have seen an original support and it looks too thin at the bottom to take a bearing.

                Hi Duncan, According to the pulleys on the machine there would seem to be a 1: 1.1 step up onto the VH from the gear box. With the motor where it is both swarf and coolant will go straight into the motor, the mounting of which is easy to adjust. Thanks, Noel.

                Edited By noel shelley on 26/05/2022 18:26:00

                Edited By noel shelley on 26/05/2022 18:29:25

                #599394
                jann west
                Participant
                  @jannwest71382

                  If memory serves me Youtube's thisoldtony built an overarm support for his Schaublin 13.

                  You might find the video informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7Mwd6ey6g

                  Good Luck.

                  #599404
                  duncan webster 1
                  Participant
                    @duncanwebster1
                    Posted by duncan webster on 26/05/2022 18:11:18:

                    here's a picture of the speed selector plate. This applies to the horizontal, the vertical might be slightly different, but not a lot.

                    belay that, just ran it at 50 hz top gear ratio and the tacho said 1400 rpm

                    #599405
                    duncan webster 1
                    Participant
                      @duncanwebster1
                      Posted by noel shelley on 26/05/2022 18:22:28:

                      Hi Duncan, According to the pulleys on the machine there would seem to be a 1: 1.1 step up onto the VH from the gear box. With the motor where it is both swarf and coolant will go straight into the motor, the mounting of which is easy to adjust. Thanks, Noel.

                      Edited By noel shelley on 26/05/2022 18:26:00

                      Edited By noel shelley on 26/05/2022 18:29:25

                      the bevel gears in the vertical head are 7:8 ratio, so wit that belt ratio, overall 1:1 near enough

                      #599406
                      Richard Millington
                      Participant
                        @richardmillington63972

                        Motor on the side has good and bad points, coolant and swarf and ease of tensioning as mentioned, I'd have it in a cabinet preferably.

                        From memory Arbor support is 2" deep at arm.

                        Arbor, if you have a lathe turn one between centres, 5/16 tapped for drawbar, no keyway, could shatter thin cutting discs if grabbed in material.

                        I'll measure the pulleys for you at the weekend.

                        #599411
                        duncan webster 1
                        Participant
                          @duncanwebster1

                          Drawbar on mine is 3/8 BSW captive, both horizontal and vertical. I don't think you can get M10 through, but there is a lot more stuff out there with M10.

                          #599414
                          Richard Millington
                          Participant
                            @richardmillington63972

                            Nine's 3/8 whit for vert, but 5/16 for the horizontal. 10mm I have a waisted special for the times I need one.

                            #599419
                            Dave Halford
                            Participant
                              @davehalford22513
                              Posted by noel shelley on 26/05/2022 15:34:07:

                              The machine to which I will be refering to appeared on here as a Senior Mill but was in fact a Centec 2B. It was on Easylife Auctions. Well, I landed up with it – now I've got to get up and running ! It has an underdrive cabinet that has sadly been narrowed, taking off the lip and I will use it with coolant, so thats one job ! It has the orginal switch along with a dewhurst reverser that is needed (see later ) , a new 1Hp 4pole 1Ph motor that is currently mounted on the side, this will be rubber mounted in the cabinet. The bolts for the knee mount were missing, no problem ! The table looks new but is 17.75" X 5" not 25" as should be. The Y axis gib is missing but all ways look very good. It has very well made 3" swivelling machine vice, but the handle is missing. The arbor and it's support are missing, though the over arm I have. The pedestal, gear box etc all seem ok and in good condition. It's crowning glory is the Mk3 verticle quill feed head, with an autoloc type imperial collet holder Without a reverser the VH runs the wrong way !.

                              Now the questions ! what will make a good gib strip ? 3/16 or 1/4 silver steel strip suitably fashioned to fit ? Did the 2B have a bearing or bush in the arbor support ? Are the supports available ? Can a 2MT arbour suitable for this machine be bought ? I see that ARC do a stub arbor that would work near the gearbox. The motor has a 2.25" dia double pulley – the gearbox has a 5.125" double pulley this seems wrong, i would think they should be the same , or close ie 5"ish. Gear speed 6 seems to be 1:1 = 1400rpm, The current belt ratio is 1:0.45 = would only give 650rpm.

                              I have an INT30 arbour that could be shortened, and married to a 2MT soft arbor, I also have the matching support that could be altered to fit I think ! Is there anything special about the drawbars, or will 3/8" BSW or UNC threaded rod do ? Needless to say guards will have to be made.

                              I have Tony Griffiths manual with a good exploded diagram but sadly no key to parts. This shows an INT 30 arbour and gearbox shaft !

                              Answers,advice or comment on the above will be greatly appreciated, I'm new to milling ! Noel.

                              Surprised the manual (titled "read before installing" has no key, the version I have from the old Centec Yahoo site does though the drawing is for the automill (a 2B with extra hydraulic controls)

                              If you mess with the gearbox bearing preloads they do not loosen like an old Ford strut so don't over adjust them.

                              Arbors are either 3/8 or 5/16, due to parts swapping they could be either.

                               

                              Edited By Dave Halford on 26/05/2022 19:58:56

                              #599422
                              noel shelley
                              Participant
                                @noelshelley55608

                                I have found the letters CTE B GM stamped in the dove tail on top and B32 20 on the front. I'm told that it's serial number is 5398 but I can't find that on the machine – where might it be ? The lates .co manual the drawing may well be an autimil as it shows a INT 30arbour. Noel

                                #599424
                                Dave Halford
                                Participant
                                  @davehalford22513

                                  the very last 2B's came with the int30.

                                  The serial number is on the brass speeds plate, Duncan's is 5720

                                  Edited By Dave Halford on 26/05/2022 20:10:45

                                  #599535
                                  Gary Wooding
                                  Participant
                                    @garywooding25363

                                    My Centec 2B has INT30 spindles, and they're far better than the Morse taper ones usually encountered. A gentle tap on the end of the drawbar frees it easily. I don't know when it was made.

                                    I retained the motor location in the cabinet, dug out the star point, rewired it to delta, and run it from a VFD. I can't emphasise how much of an improvement this is to a fixed speed single phase motor. It now has instant reverse too, so tapping under power is no problem.

                                    Here's a photo of the serial plate.

                                    serial plate.jpg

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