Hobbymat MD65 – Leadscrew issue

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Hobbymat MD65 – Leadscrew issue

Home Forums Manual machine tools Hobbymat MD65 – Leadscrew issue

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  • #588471
    Harry M
    Participant
      @harrym12848

      Good afternoon everybody !

      I ve run in an issue with my recently acquired Hobbymat MD 65. I ve noticed that the leadscrew needs more effort to move on a particular segment of its rotation.

      I also think that while in automatic feed, I get a pattern on stock while cutting, that looks like screwcutting – but I need to buy some new stock to further examine this.

      I have put on some thrust bearings on the right end of the leadscrew, but I haven't machined a recess so they can fit into.

      After a few moments while investigating, I saw that the grooved taper pin – No 28 on the manual, seems to be heavily bent, as well as rubbing on the steel plate – the one on the left end of the leadscrew.

      Is that normal ? Should it be that way ?

      Could someone provide me with some clear photos of that point from a running MD65 so I can further investigate ?

      What else should I check ?

      Thanks in advance

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      #14495
      Harry M
      Participant
        @harrym12848
        #588496
        Thor 🇳🇴
        Participant
          @thor

          Hi Harry,

          Not familiar with your lathe but a bent tape pin doesn't sound right and I doubt it should be rubbing. A photo might help (how to post photos here).

          Thor

          #588497
          DiogenesII
          Participant
            @diogenesii

            Pin 28 should be fully 'home' in it's collar, not hanging out. It's purpose is to secure the collar to the leadscrew.

            If it's not too badly damaged, it's okay to straighten it out and replace it – loosen off the nut and handwheel at the R/H end of the leadscrew and the carriage lock first to release any tension.

            Once the pin is back in, re-fit the handwheel loosely (i.e. with ample end-float), and lightly nip up the locknut just to check that the leadscrew turns freely and without binding or rubbing on anything.

            If you can't achieve free rotation at this stage, something else is amiss and will need sorting out.

            Once everything feels free-but-sloppy, turn your attention to adjusting the handwheel to give the minimum of freeplay/backlash/endfloat, but without binding or becoming stiff to turn – it will not be possible to eliminate all backlash because some clearance is necessary for the parts to turn without binding.

            It can be a pain to achieve correct adjustment, but it's worth persevering, and if you must, err on the side of too much freeplay rather than not enough.

            The 'screw thread' pattern might be a seperate issue – is the gear train set up to give the finest feed possible – (0.08mm, I think) – 30 tooth (Z 30) on the back of the spindle, driving a Z75 which should be compounded with a Z20, which then drives the Z100 on the leadscrew…

            There are a few 'hobbymat'  and 'MD65' threads on the forum, the machines are great, but have some quirks, you can use the search box at the top of the page to see previous discussions..

            Edited By DiogenesII on 06/03/2022 19:32:51

            #588499
            Bazyle
            Participant
              @bazyle

              The pin is a 'shear pin' and the groove is to weaken it but if it was taken apart and put back clumsily it can then bend there.
              Does it have the same stiff segment ( I assume you mean part of a single rotation of the leadscrew) when rotating in the opposite direction so that the force is not on the bearing at the left hand end.?
              If the collar is not true and all the surfaces of the bearing and its seat (still talking left hand end) not clean with no embedded swarf the bearing will not be exactly true and the two together form a swash plate which gives these problems. Trying to remove all end float in the leadscrew which I assume is the idea behind your extra bearing will make the problem more obvious.

              #588508
              Nicholas Farr
              Participant
                @nicholasfarr14254

                Hi Harry, no it should not be the way you describe. The tapered pin shouldn't be showing any more than my one shown below and it should be able to be seen no more than the same amount on the other side of the bush- No. 8 on the drawing.

                bush & pin.jpg

                There shouldn't be a steel plate that the pin can rub on anyway, as there should be an aluminium apron No.1 on page 48 as shown in the above photo that holds change gears.

                Regards Nick.

                #588511
                Harry M
                Participant
                  @harrym12848

                  Wow, thank you for all the answers !

                  My pin is really huge compared to that on the photo – and therefore really bent while rubbing on the aluminium plate.

                  Will try to take a photo – as well as take the whole thing apart and investigate – and then get back to you.

                  But as I can see, somehow a previour owner really messed up with that part. Hope my leadscrew is still straight and not bent.

                  #588515
                  SillyOldDuffer
                  Moderator
                    @sillyoldduffer
                    Posted by Harry M on 06/03/2022 21:18:49:

                    … Hope my leadscrew is still straight and not bent.

                    That's a possibility: a replaced shear pin suggests a previous owner crashed the saddle, which might have bent the lead-screw.

                    Fingers crossed, neither is a big problem. You can make a new shear pin without the lead-screw attached – I suggest Brass because it snaps more easily than Steel if there's another accident.

                    If the lead-screw is removed, there's a good chance you can ease it straight by gentle hand bending using a table top as reference.

                    Dave

                    #588525
                    Bazyle
                    Participant
                      @bazyle

                      When you have a taper pin through both a collar and shaft obviously the thick end of both has to be on the same side and a smooth taper all the way through. I think your previous owner in messing about got the shaft hole 180 out of line so the pin didn't go in. You should try to get a new pin. taper pins all should have the same rate of taper, just different thickness so you should be able to get one. I think the Eastern Block countries did follow international convention on this while far eastern can be a bit more hit and miss.
                      If the bodging has messed up the hole you might be better off drilling a new hole at 90 degrees just be careful as you break through the existing hole. Plug that hole with a bit of mild steel before drilling so there isn't a hole if possible. You don't have to use a taper pin as that would need a taper reamer too. Instead use a roll pin – yes I know shock horror but it is the most sensible solution for an amateur.

                      #588533
                      DiogenesII
                      Participant
                        @diogenesii

                        I'd be surprised if the leadscrew is bent, it's a chunky fine pitch 16mm dia thing and quite short.. ..tho' of course the human animal can always find new ways to break things..

                        If you need a new pin, probably best to buy a new mild steel one – it is there to retain the collar that acts against the thrust bearing, and has to resist the push & pull of the carriage when the saddle is being traversed.

                        Agree with Bazyle that it's a standard 1:50 'Metric Taper Pin 3x18mm', – 3×20 will fit but will probably need to be dressed back flush with the collar after fitting.. also his comment regarding getting the holes lined up in the right orientation before driving home..

                        It is described as 'grooved' in the manual because the original part is a drive-fit taper pin with an axially 'nicked' head that's meant to retain the collar on it's shaft as a more-or-less permanent assembly.

                        If it works loose you might end up having to use a chemical retainer to secure it.

                         

                        Edited By DiogenesII on 07/03/2022 07:25:45

                        Edited By DiogenesII on 07/03/2022 07:27:41

                        #588552
                        Anonymous
                          Posted by Bazyle on 06/03/2022 23:59:12:

                          …taper pins all should have the same rate of taper…

                          Not strictly true; imperial taper pins are 1:48, whereas metric are 1:50. More confusihgly imperial taper pins are specified by the diameter of the large end, while metric taper pins are specified by the diameter of the small end.

                          Andrew

                          #588987
                          Harry M
                          Participant
                            @harrym12848

                            Hello again !

                            Managed to find some time to look into the issue

                            So, I started by disassembling the left side of the leadscrew and saw that picture :

                            _1050076.jpg

                            Went further into disassembly :

                            _1050078.jpg

                            And :

                            _1050080.jpg

                            As you can see, the pin is really huge compared to what it should be, and it was definitely rubbing on the aluminium apron.

                            Tried to gently straighten the pin so I could get it out and then…

                            _1050088.jpg

                            So, after a few moments of unscrewing the leadscrew I got there :

                            _1050083.jpg

                            The ball bearing is definitely not the factory one, so somehow a previous owner has probably messed up with the leadscrew.

                            I also noticed that the bearing should be trashed a bit and when it came off the apron limits the leadscrew started to turn more freely.

                            Is that indicating that the leadscrew is bent – or it's just the bearing that is trashed ?

                            Could someone provide the original bearing dimensions ? Is it a 6902 2RS – That's 15x28x7 in mm.

                            Any more suggestions on what else should I look into ?

                            Thanks in advance !

                            #588988
                            DiogenesII
                            Participant
                              @diogenesii

                              According to the book, should be a 51102 (15x28X9) ball thrust bearing – try ArcEurotrade;

                              Arc Euro – Thrust Ball Bearings

                              Buy a new 3×18 metric taper pin.

                              Bob's your uncle.

                              See what it's like with the proper bearing in it, hopefully normal action will be restored…

                              Edited By DiogenesII on 09/03/2022 21:32:46

                              #589007
                              Nicholas Farr
                              Participant
                                @nicholasfarr14254

                                Hi, as DiogenesII has said and you can just make the number out in my photo above, just click on it and then click on it again and it should zoom in a bit closer and my book also says 51102

                                Regards Nick.

                                #592127
                                Harry M
                                Participant
                                  @harrym12848

                                  Hello !

                                  Finally managed to acquire some NSK 51102 thrust ball bearings.

                                  At first, I managed to place the bearing, but the leadscrew kept seizing.

                                  I unbolted everything I could, the leadscrew end collar, the leadscrew nut bolts – but the problem persisted.

                                  Then the aluminium apron caught my eye. I disassembled it and then proceeded to fit it again on the lathe, while putting back on everything else.

                                  Seems to be ok, the gears are much less noisier than before and the leadscrew works fine while on power feed.

                                  Needs some effort while hand cranking but, it's much less than before.

                                  However I managed to do a stupid mistake – I carelessly screwed the grub screw on the carriage (the second one from the right) while the protection collar was a bit extended. Therefore it came in contact with the leadscrew about 2 inches from the far end and managed to strip 1/5 of a thread or so. I know, I should have paid more attention

                                  Would that fault cause any problem in the future ? Hopefully it's at the very end of the leadscrew.

                                  Now I have to get some stock and do some testing ! I will get back with results.

                                  Thank you again !

                                  #592159
                                  Nicholas Farr
                                  Participant
                                    @nicholasfarr14254

                                    Hi Harry, I guess the only problem you will have, is the length of work piece you wish to turn down will only be 4/5's of the capacity of the lathe.

                                    Regards Nick.

                                    #592161
                                    Hopper
                                    Participant
                                      @hopper

                                      Sounds like you can smooth the edges of the damaged thread down with a file and carry on. It's on the relatively unused end of the leadscrew and anyway the half-nuts engage with multiple turns of the leadscrew so one fifth of one turn of thread missing should be ok. Not ideal, but ok.

                                      #592183
                                      HOWARDT
                                      Participant
                                        @howardt

                                        Check wether the bearing washers have the same inside diameters. Thrust bearings in some sizes have a housing washer that fits on the outside diameter into the housing and is clear of the shaft, whist the other washer fits onto the shaft and clear of any housing. Putting them the wrong way round will cause fretting on the shaft or housing.

                                        #592209
                                        Harry M
                                        Participant
                                          @harrym12848
                                          Posted by HOWARDT on 31/03/2022 10:44:35:

                                          Check wether the bearing washers have the same inside diameters. Thrust bearings in some sizes have a housing washer that fits on the outside diameter into the housing and is clear of the shaft, whist the other washer fits onto the shaft and clear of any housing. Putting them the wrong way round will cause fretting on the shaft or housing.

                                          Hmm… I will check this out – even though I think that 51102 bearing washers are both identical.

                                          I will also purchase a thread file for repairing that 1/5 of a turn that I managed to ruin 😛

                                          Thanks !

                                          #592256
                                          DiogenesII
                                          Participant
                                            @diogenesii

                                            On my machine the two innermost screws (on the front of the saddle) retain the leadscrew nut in it's housing in the saddle. The ends locate in a pair of shallow detent holes in the outer body.

                                            The two outermost ones secure the tubular leadscrew guards on either side.

                                            It'd probably be worth investigating further before doing much more – the leadscrew nut must be checked to make sure that it is correctly aligned and located, the securing screws should be 'home' but not tightened to the point where they are causing pressure on the screw, and the saddle must be completely 'free' to slide up and down the bed when unlocked – I might be inclined to adjust the saddle clamp / release screws to be on the 'slack' side until you get to the bottom of whatever is 'binding'..

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