Warco Lathe Motor Issue

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Warco Lathe Motor Issue

This topic has 47 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 4 January 2011 at 17:19 by Deric.

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12 December 2010 at 23:57 #60455
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Good evening I have a Warco geared head lathe for a few years supplied directly from Warco. Not had any problems with the machine until recently.
When I start the machine the motor seems to have difficulty firing up straight away there seems to be a lag / powering up issue. This always seems worse when the machine has been stood overnight. Seems fine once it’s been running a while although last week the motor was extremely hot and it’s as though I could smell burning from the motor.
I’ve uploaded a video on you tube of the machine trying to fire up.

Anyone any ideas?

Thanks
Anthony
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12 December 2010 at 23:57 #11723
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Motor problems any help out there?
13 December 2010 at 04:35 #60463
John Olsen
Participant
@johnolsen79199
Depends a bit what sort of motor it is, I presume it is single phase. Some single phase motors have a starting winding and capacitor, with a centrifugal switch to take it out of circuit once the notor is up to speed. If the switch is going bad, it may not make good contact and would give a hesitation in starting. If it does not throw out once the motor is up to speed then it could cause overheating.

On the other hand, some motors have the capacitor permanently connected. If the capacitor or the winding has gone bad, it might well give trouble both with starting and with overheating.

Hot smells from a motor are never a good sign. Probably you are going to have to take it out and get someone who knows motors to check it out. It may not be the whole motor, it may just be a starting switch or a capacitor, but you should get it checked out properly anyway.

If it comes to needing a new motor, think about the possibility of putting in a three phase motor, which will be smaller than the original for the same power, and an inverter speed controller. This may not be very much dearer than a replacement motor, and gives a much more flexible drive arrangement.

regards

John
13 December 2010 at 07:25 #60466
JasonB
Moderator
@jasonb
This has been coming up on several woodworking forums in the last couple of weeks. I would say its the belts that are cold and stiff and the oil in the head thick.

Turn the lathe over a few times by hand first thing in the day and also try slackening teh belt tension a bit.

My planer /thicknesser always has this trouble in cold weather.

Jason
13 December 2010 at 09:34 #60472
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
As John says a HOT motor is a sign of DANGER, have it looked at before you burn eveything else you own. Talk to WARCO, do not just hope it will go away.
13 December 2010 at 10:04 #60474
Steve Garnett
Participant
@stevegarnett62550
I think that everybody could be right – that cogging at the start of the video has nothing to do with belts directly at all – sounds far more like some sort of switching failure, although it would be a sensible thing to try disconnecting everything from the motor shaft and seeing if it still does this, because if the cold load is sufficient to hold the motor down at the centrifugal switching speed, then this is pretty much what would happen, along with some overheating.

John is especially right about fitting a three-phase motor with a speed control, because with that, you can run it slowly for a while when it’s cold anyway. The only real snag with this is that you don’t want to run it for too long like that, because the fan in the motor won’t be turning at the design speed, and the motor will warm up more than it should because of this.

The only other point to make, if it really is a cold situation, is to make sure that the gear selected when you start is one which will produce minimum motor load, and run it like that. And that will almost invariably be the lowest speed the lathe has. This has the added advantage of exercising every gear in it, probably!
13 December 2010 at 10:49 #60480
Ian S C
Participant
@iansc
Had a wee bit of trouble with my belt head 1326 aiwanese lathe with a 1.5hp single phase motor. In damp atmopheric conditions it used to arc to the frame at the starter switch, an exta bit of insulation in there fixed thatnearly 20yrs ago, I’d forgotten about it until now. The motor on a drill press at work went the same way , it to was fixed, just needed a bit of electrical tape on the bare metal. Ian S C
13 December 2010 at 20:15 #60510
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Yes it’s a single phase motor with two big capacitors on the frame of the motor. I always turn the chuck by hand before starting up just to make sure nothing is binding on first run after the machine has been stood for a few days.
I’m thinking the motor is probably knackered. Is there any simple checks I could do to see if it really is the motor?
I’m thinking I might just by a 3 phase motor and inverter drive. I purchased one a few months ago for my millling machine which is very good.
I did email Warco but no one replied!?

Thanks
Anthony
13 December 2010 at 20:47 #60511
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
Everyone from Warco would have been at Sandown, email Roger Warren at Warco now to sort it or else go on with the 3 phase motor/inverter route..
13 December 2010 at 22:18 #60513
Gray62
Participant
@gray62
With two capacitors, this is a capacitor start/capacitor run type of motor, there are a number of areas that need investigating, look at the capacitors for any sign of bulging or leakage. if either one is failing, this can lead to this type of hunting on startup, also start/run switch inside the motor, if the contacts are damaged this will also cause this problem.

A burning smell would suggest a capacitor failing. Don’t run the motor any longer until you identify the problem otherwise you will permanently damage the motor windings.

Also, I would contact Warco directly, if you want to replace the motor, they will be able to supply you with a direct replacement. If you are considering a 3 phase replacement, I would recommend contacting either drives direct or Newton tesla. The latter probably have more experience in integrating their inverter drives with Warco machines although both are equally well versed with this type of application. My inverter drives have all comke from direct drives and I have had excellent support from them. Usual disclaimer, I have no association with either company, just a satisfied customer.
19 December 2010 at 18:01 #60820
Deric
Participant
@deric
The symptoms you describe are similar to those I experienced with my Warco Major mill.

During fly cutting a saddle casting the intermittent loading on the capacitors (the are 2 – start and run) caused a clicking noise I could hear in the background. Some time afterwards the mill was slow to start but did get going with a mild smell of electrical burning.

I stripped the capacitor box to find that both of the capacitors had ‘popped’ the top of their casings. Both original capacitors are very cheap plastic bodied components (from-you know where). I have replaced both with quality ‘self healing’ products from Radio Spares. The insulation between the plates does become minutely holed sometimes due to shock loading hence the rneed for ‘self healing’ ranges of capacitors.

I have had experience of this before in my previous life as a test and commissioning engineer on very large industrial inverter systems when faulty insulation between the plates of capacitors did fail catastrophically causing a large amount of damage to a well known knightsbrdge store wharehouse.

I did write to Warco but never did recieve acknowledgement of the issue.
19 December 2010 at 19:39 #60825
_Paul_
Participant
@_paul_
Anthony

As you already have an inverter (assuming the device has enough output) why not run your lathe and your mill off the same one you could then replace your suspect single phase motor with a variable speed 3 phase motor.

I have an ML7 and a Taylor mill running off the same 2HP Teco inverter, to swap machines I simply power down unplug one macnine and plug in the other using one 32 amp 3PH socket & two 32 amp plugs.

I bought my last 1HP 3PH motor for around £65 off Ebay which at the time was cheaper than the single phase items on offer.

Regards

Paul Floyd
19 December 2010 at 22:13 #60831
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Deric what do you think then would you think that the capacitors are knackered?
I had a look at them and they are two wires going into a bag. They don’t have a solid plastic shell how would I know what size new ones I could get? Could this potentially have damaged the motor in any way?
21 December 2010 at 21:30 #60988
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Deric,
Its me starting and stopping the machine although the intermittent noise is once I start the machine up. Yep the click is the controls.

I had a brain wave yesterday, because I had replaced my motor on the milling machine to a three phase inverter motor I have put the old motor on the lathe. The one I took off was 2hp and this one off the milling machine is only 1.5hp but it will show if the motor was the problem.

Ant
24 December 2010 at 15:59 #61147
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
New problem…….just fitted the 1.5hp motor all seemed to fit, turn it on with no load just like the other motor and it fires up fine. I put the belts on and at first the motor wasn’t turning the spindle at the correct speed. I think the belts where slipping as it was very hot on the motor pulley. No other part of the motor was hot.>>

>>

Now I come to the thought it is something to do with the belts and the motor alignment all the time. I had just recently moved the machine and had to remove the motor. Could this be possible?>>

>>

How should the belts be set correctly? Could the belts being too tight or too slack cause the problems in the motor start-up?>>

>>

Yep I seem to have the same problem with the 1.5hp motor? Also am I supposed to reset something in the electrics for a smaller motor?>>

>>

I’ve added a few pics so everyone can see the setup / problem>>

.

Edited By Anthony Salisbury on 24/12/2010 16:03:53
24 December 2010 at 17:33 #61151
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi Anthony, from your photos, the belt alignment doesn’t look to bad. One way of checking alignment is to trap a piece of string under the outermost belt on the large pulley and pull it taught over the top and then swing it towards the bottom pulley untill it just touches the highest point. If the pulleys are in line then there will be no gap across the diameter of them, and the string, as shown in the photo below.

Look at the grooves of the pulleys espcialy the motor one, they should be very much V shaped and not U shaped. If the bottom flat bit looks very shiny, then the pulley and/or the belts may be badly worn. You should be able to twist the belts about 80/90 degrees between the pulleys, if the tension is about correct. Hope this is of help.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/12/2010 17:45:55
24 December 2010 at 19:34 #61164
Deric
Participant
@deric
Anthony, hi,

Can you turn the lathe input shaft by hand and can you turn the chuck by hand? I’ve just read here:- http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10708 about a problem that could give you the symptoms you have.

Has the gh1224 got an electric brake?could we be looking at a problem that is to do with the emergency brake not releasing cleanly?

From the thread on that link above it looks like Warco may well know about the problem.

If you have put the mill 1.5hp motor on the lathe you should fit the overload that was fitted to your mill or alternatively reset the overload to the same settings as those on the mill. BTW that motor is the same as the one fitted to my GH major mill the one that the caps failed on.

regards

Deric
26 December 2010 at 13:46 #61216
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
I can turn the lathe by hand no problem. I just don’t know what the problem sems to be its a nightmare!

Mybe could be to do with the belts? Is there any reason for the two belts running together?

Regards,

nhtony
26 December 2010 at 14:10 #61219
KWIL
Participant
@kwil
One belt would probably slip, its all a matter of transmitting the power with the pulley sizes that can be accomodated on the machine.
26 December 2010 at 14:19 #61221
Deric
Participant
@deric
Anthony, hi,

I think you should make sure the lathe gearbox drive is free at the time of start up.

This is what I would do:-

Take both belts off of motor and lathe pulley.

Disconnect lay shaft drive by removing drive cog.

Switch on lathe power supply after fitting all covers etc.

Then start lathe – the lathe motor should start start and run up to speed freely.

As the motor starts see if the brakes come off by trying to turn the chuck.

With motor still running see if you can turn A. chuck B. lathe input drive shaft pulleys (Obviously keeping well away from rotating motor pulleys)

KWIL is right – the original designers thought that two belts were needed to transmit the drive torque required at full load.
26 December 2010 at 14:23 #61222
Terryd
Participant
@terryd72465
Hi Anthony,

Just a thought so please excuse me if this seems too basic, but have you tried slackening the belts, they look a little tight to me but it’s obviously difficult to judge from photographs. On my Boxford the belts run quite slack and I still have quite enough torque to turn quite large objects. I keep them less than taut so that they act as a safety device, slipping if there is a jam or other problem (a worn belt is cheaper than a burnt out motor).

Many people tighten these belts as they would an alternator belt on a car and that sort of tension is just not necessary especially with multiple belts. It just seems strange that you had the problem since you moved the lathe and removed and refitted the motor, is it possible that you have over tensioned the belts?

Happy new year and I hope that you solve the problem soon,

Terry
26 December 2010 at 14:45 #61223
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Terry,

Thanks for the pointers….This has got me thinking again. When I level the motor and just have the motors weight tensioning the belts the belts seem to slip. So i force them to add more tension. Now it seems the motor has difficulty starting but the belts no longer slip.

Maybe you have a point what if one of the belts has streched and the other is fine? Then I would get the same affect of having only one belt running, this I guess will look like one of the belts slipping?

Anyones thoughts on that?

Regards,

Anthony
27 December 2010 at 12:46 #61250
Nicholas Farr
Participant
@nicholasfarr14254
Hi Anthony, unless one belt is seriously longer than the other, you will not have any appreciable belt slip, in normal operations. You may get some slight slip in extrem and heavy loads. As I ‘ve said before, any amount of wear in the pulley V’s wiil make a difference and may also make one belt look as if it is streched if any wear is different between the two. Also as I’ve mentioned you should be able to twist the belts between the two pulleys to about 80/90 degrees to be about right. V type belt drives that are drum tight produce excess heat, increased wear, overloads the bearings and increases the power input required.
30 December 2010 at 13:40 #61446
Anthony Salisbury
Participant
@anthonysalisbury72898
Thanks everyone for the replies,

But the fun continues……Spent a few hours yesterday trying to sort this problem out still going round in circles, although with the few pointers on the forum I seem to making some progress.

I’ve installed this 1.5hp motor from my milling machine and seem still to be having problmes. I investigated it further yesterday (how many times can I take a motor on and off the machine???)

I checked the pulley alignments and they seem ok at least no worse than before. I was still concerned about the belts so I got them to what I felt was right and marked across the belts to see if they where slipping. As I guessed they where slipping so I further tightened these.

This is where the fun really begins. Before I installed the belts I worked through all the sppeds on the machine checking I could hand move on each speed by hand. As you will all know its easier to turn on some speeds more difficult on others because of the gearing.

Video hand movement of drive.

Pic below shows the speed ranges.

Now with is the weird one. I thought I’d start at speed A1 then A2 etc. Just to make sure each speed setting had the same problem. The machine seems to be ok on the lower speeds its the higer 1000rpm plus that seem to be a problem.

Now the only thing I can think of is that I changed a spindle bearing and at the same time changed the headstock oil. The new oil I put in way a higher weight and viscocity. What I took out was quite watery and the new was much thicker. I’m thinking that its too thick this is why the motor keeps having problmes at the higher speeds? What weight / viscoity of oil should I be using in the headstock? Any particular product?

I also blow the capacitor on this 1.5hp motor I’m guessing it doesn’t really like the “searching for speed in the motor?”

Anyone with anymore ideas?

Thanks again,

Anthony

Edited By Anthony Salisbury on 30/12/2010 14:01:11
30 December 2010 at 13:50 #61451
Gray62
Participant
@gray62
Hi Anthony, the headstock lube that Warco sell is a lightwight non detergent oil. Shell Tellus 68 is the recommended oil for these type of machines.

Did you use a motor engine oil? These are not recommended as they contain detergents designed to keep particles in suspension to be removed through the pressurised oil filter.

This you do not want in a splash lube lathe headstock, any particles should be allowed to fall to the bottom of the oil sump. It is possible that the heavier oil is causing problems, especially in colder weather.
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