Putting on a fine cut..

Advert

Putting on a fine cut..

Home Forums Beginners questions Putting on a fine cut..

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #649957
    jon hill 3
    Participant
      @jonhill3

      Having always wanted to build a small single cylinder aero engine I thought it would be a good time to get some opinion on putting on fine cuts, say working to 5/10000" in steel or aliminium.

      As my ml10 is graduated in 'thou' what are the remedies to get finer cuts?

      Advert
      #11502
      jon hill 3
      Participant
        @jonhill3
        #649961
        Martin Kyte
        Participant
          @martinkyte99762

          Angle the compound slide to 6 degrees and put on the cut using that. 10 thou on the dial is 1 thou infeed.

          regards Martin

          #649962
          Buffer
          Participant
            @buffer

            Spareys the amateur lathe tells you all about this.

            #649963
            John Haine
            Participant
              @johnhaine32865

              But you need to have a really sharp tool and well adjusted slides.

              #649964
              noel shelley
              Participant
                @noelshelley55608

                For the final sizing lap or use a cylinder hone. Good luck Noel.

                #649965
                martin haysom
                Participant
                  @martinhaysom48469

                  working to those limits you will also need a tempture controlled workshop and some very high end machine's. as for measuring equipment i don't know. but i do know it will need calibrating professionally. i have never worked to those limits, however i do work in the aerospace industry where such equipment is the norm.

                  #649968
                  noel shelley
                  Participant
                    @noelshelley55608

                    Hi Martin, as an apprentice I was given a Harrison 10 and a 1" mike and told to make 400 pins in silver steel, to a tolerance of 1/4 thou, the lathe was worn and there was no temp control, but I got the job done – it was for RR. Noel

                    #649969
                    bernard towers
                    Participant
                      @bernardtowers37738

                      Model aero is machine to within a thou and hone /lap the rest, just finished a 0.1 dragonflea but its a tad too small for me ,working on a glow humbug at the moment hope you have success with yours. somewhere around 1.5 to 2.5cc is a nice manageable size.

                      #649971
                      JasonB
                      Moderator
                        @jasonb

                        I've never bothered to do anything special when making aero engines even the ones with no rings just split the divisions by eye. Final fit is by feel not measurement. So long as both parts you are working on are at similar ambient temp you don't need to control the workshop temp

                        Here is the old chinaman taking a 1 though cut to get to 0.3937" (10mm in new money) Insert tool and cross slide set parallel to lathe axis which is a lot easier when working to a shoulder like here than having the slide set over as that also moves the tool sideways as well as a little way in.

                         

                         

                        And a rare occasion that the mic comes out of the draw looks close to the 7 on the 10ths scale to me
                         

                         

                        Edited By JasonB on 25/06/2023 17:33:57

                        #650025
                        not done it yet
                        Participant
                          @notdoneityet
                          Posted by noel shelley on 25/06/2023 14:59:44:

                          For the final sizing lap or use a cylinder hone. Good luck Noel.

                          Precisely!

                          #650030
                          Kiwi Bloke
                          Participant
                            @kiwibloke62605

                            … and it's easier to make the piston to fit the bore, rather than t'other way round.

                            #650055
                            SillyOldDuffer
                            Moderator
                              @sillyoldduffer

                              Below about a thou, various tricky factors start causing trouble, and they get progressively worse:

                              • Temperature – a rod warmed to 40°C is measurably bigger than the same rod at 20°C. If temperature isn't accounted for, you ain't measuring tenths!
                              • Calibration becomes vital. Second-hand gauge blocks and ancient micrometers aren't good enough.
                              • Technique is difficult and tiny flaws destroy accuracy.
                              • Although a large diameter dial helps, don't expect much from dials, and especially not small ones. Dial marks are usually indicative rather than accurate: the operator is expected to use a micrometer, calipers, or DTI
                              • The brand-new lead-screw of an ordinary lathe is unlikely to be tenths accurate and older lead-screws will be more-or-less worn too. The accuracy of fine-cuts is fundamentally limited.
                              • Tiny saddle, headstock and other alignment errors show up
                              • Work and tools both bend under cutting pressure, making it likely that cuts are not all of equal depth end-to-end. (Ever noticed that tools often remove more metal when reversed out of a cut?)
                              • Scale causes the relative surface finish to go to pot! As the size of cut is small compared with the lathe's automatic feed-rate, fine cuts leave spiral grooves rather than a smooth surface. Looked at with a microscope after a few passes, the surface resembles knurling. Is a tenths micrometer measuring between peaks, or has the anvil crushed them towards the valley bottoms? Dunno: unless the surface is good, the tenths are uncertain

                              What this boils down to is that lathes (and milling machines) struggle to take cuts that are both fine and accurate. Tool-room lathes and jig-borers do better, but they're elaborately engineered and maintained to hold accuracy. They have obvious limits too.

                              The answer to high accuracy isn't a lathe. Industry are fond of grinding machines but these are expensive. Fortunately small workshops can get good accuracy and surface finish with manual abrasives, notably emery papers,and lapping. Making pistons, the lathe is used to get close to size, but turning stops a little above target. After that a succession of ever finer abrasives are used remove unwanted metal, not cutters. Unlike cutters, correctly used abrasives improve the surface as well as removing metal. The main problem with abrasives are removing metal evenly, and the amount of time it takes.

                              Larger pistons don't go for a very tight fit: instead the seal is provided by piston rings which can expand slightly to fit. Although cylinders are bored very accurately in big engines, I've got the impression surface finish is even more important. There is no 'Running In, Please Pass'. Au contraire, I've built 5 model engines and they all needed a lot of running in! I spoiled several pistons by rushing the finishing stage. Patience in the workshop is not one of my virtues.

                              I rarely work to better than ±0.05mm and avoid high-accuracy if I can. I stay with innocent measuring because high-accuracy is dangerously additive. 'Chasing Tenths' could easily take over my life. As Chasing Microns is even more difficult, only real men dare go metric!

                              smiley

                              Dave

                              #650066
                              Martin Kyte
                              Participant
                                @martinkyte99762

                                However when you know you need to take 3 and a half thou off the angled top slide gets you closer to setting 1.75’ than guessing the setting of a small dial. It assumes the your tool is sharp and the last cut you made took a similar amount off.

                                regards Martin

                                #650090
                                old mart
                                Participant
                                  @oldmart

                                  Most of my imperial micrometers read in tenths of a thou, but I have never had any difficulty in splitting the 0.001" divisions by eye, so the vernier scale is redundent for my purposes. You can try tests to find how accurately you can split the divisions on your cross slide using a DTI and a piece of ground stock in the chuck, a MT socket or new drill shank. Actually cutting this finely gets difficult, which accounts for the advice on lapping. I can cut 0.0005" with steel using carbide inserts intended for aluminium.

                                  #650100
                                  Huub
                                  Participant
                                    @huub

                                    Under CNC control, taking a 0.005 mm cut in aluminium using a CCGT060204 insert (uncoated, ground) is not a problem (do this on a daily base) even on the mini lathe. In aluminium, I could cut as shallow as 0.002 mm (stepper resolution).
                                    For steel I would use the same CCGT060204 insert insert but the 0.005 mm depth of cut would be the limit.

                                    The biggest problem is measuring the diameter, not the turning part. For inside diameters my 2 point gauges are just not repeatable enough. That is not a gauge issue but more my ability to position the gauge the right way with the part in the chuck. Measuring a calibration ring with ground surfaces is not a problem.

                                    #650131
                                    Neil Lickfold
                                    Participant
                                      @neillickfold44316
                                      Posted by jon hill 3 on 25/06/2023 14:15:55:

                                      Having always wanted to build a small single cylinder aero engine I thought it would be a good time to get some opinion on putting on fine cuts, say working to 5/10000" in steel or aliminium.

                                      As my ml10 is graduated in 'thou' what are the remedies to get finer cuts?

                                      When I trim pistons for model engines, I set the top slide at the same angle that the taper is for the crown, about 0.7 deg. It makes my Myford top slide , 1 notch is 1um on diameter or so. The steel liners with iron pistons, the liner wants to have at the bottom below the exhaust port , about Ø0.05 to Ø0.06mm bigger than the piston diameter. Then from the exhaust port to the top dead center mark, wants about Ø0.01mm then parallel to the very top of the liner. All the liner tapers can be lapped from a parallel bore.

                                      The piston wants to be turned to fit ideally, with a slight crown taper, for about the thickness of the crown. On cast iron pistons, I recommend that the top slide be set to about 0.5 deg. Trim the piston until it just enters the bottom of the liner. Then only using the topslide to make the next cuts until it fits where you want it. To get the last little bit, you can use a light grey scotch brite on the piston.

                                      I like the Kyocera ccgt type of insert in the PR1425 grade. I have a picture in my album of the insert.

                                      As for cuts, clean the piston with break clean or any other degreaser and trim the piston dry. The amount that a lathe can cut is down to a lot of variables.

                                    Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
                                    • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                    Advert

                                    Latest Replies

                                    Home Forums Beginners questions Topics

                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                    View full reply list.

                                    Advert

                                    Newsletter Sign-up