Major? Spindle play

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Major? Spindle play

Home Forums Beginners questions Major? Spindle play

  • This topic has 55 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 4 May 2023 at 11:04 by Nick Wheeler.
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  • #643493
    Peter Parkes 1
    Participant
      @peterparkes1

      Hi. Im very new to machining (no lathe work since high school … I'm now 58).

      I've recently purchased a Vevor 7×16 mini lathe, which im still setting up.

      It,s not bolted down yet, but I'm a little concerned at the play in the headstock. I didn't realise 'till I started checking for parralell.

      When I noticed that if I even try to turn the chuck by hand i an getting some serious play.

      Measuring the job (a 30 odd cm x 30mm piece of aluminium round stock in a 3 jaw), just putting my hand on the chuck to turn it is registering 15 increments (0.01mm each on the dti) of play, both back and forward. That is 0.15mm, yes? Or is my maths wrong?

      This is also reproducible with the lathe running (but not warmed up).

      This is too much, isnt it? Can i do much (anything?) without new bearings? Should I be talking to the manufacturer?

      Any feedback would be much appreciated.

      Peter.

      P.s. i can attach a shrot video if there's somewhere to do so, or could email it to anyone who wants to see.

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      #11467
      Peter Parkes 1
      Participant
        @peterparkes1

        New lathe (vevor 7×16) .15mm play (each side) in spindle.

        #643498
        Nicholas Farr
        Participant
          @nicholasfarr14254

          Hi Peter, see here for posting Photos & Videos

          Regards Nick.

          P.S. Welcome to the Forum.

          Edited By Nicholas Farr on 02/05/2023 07:10:20

          #643502
          Peter Parkes 1
          Participant
            @peterparkes1

            Thanks, Nick, that's great. Pretty straightforward too. Only problem is that my vid is an mp4.

            Ill see if i can do something at work tomorrow to grab some stills from it. (Or maybe just re-take a series of shots showing the situation).

            Cheers.

            #643503
            JasonB
            Moderator
              @jasonb

              Video has to be hosted elsewhere, Youtube has no problem with MP4

              As it is new why not contact vevor before you start playing with things that may invalidate any warantee.

              Edited By JasonB on 02/05/2023 07:43:35

              #643504
              Peter Parkes 1
              Participant
                @peterparkes1

                Yeah, that's why im here asking about it. It really is too much play, isnt it?

                #643506
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  Spindle bearings can usually be adjusted. There are many slight variations between the generic Mini lathes so how yours adjusts and what type/quality of bearings are fitted is hard to know. See if they can talk you through adjusting the bearings, though you don't always get much in the way of customer support at the low end of the price range.

                  #643511
                  John Haine
                  Participant
                    @johnhaine32865

                    It's grossly excessive. If you bought the lathe new then don't attempt any rectification yourself, reject it as not fit for purpose and get a refund. Vevor have a mixed reputation, for obvious reasons!

                    #643514
                    Peter Parkes 1
                    Participant
                      @peterparkes1

                      I do think vevor will talk to me. They assured me they would help if i had any issues.

                      But as far as i can see, the only adjustment is going to be tightening down the nut on the other side of the headstock. And there doesn't seem to be any runout so I'm not sure how much i could tighten them down without causing binding. …which is why I'm asking about other options. They may just be cheap bearings. In which case replacing them with new cheap bearings is not going to be much of a solution.

                      I can try to get vevor to upgrade them but im not sure how that'll go. Which is why I'm wondering whether i may actually have to upgrade them in the end. Its not something i want to do, but…

                      What I really need to know is whether this is as serious defect as i think it is or whether Vevor are likely to tell me "no, thats normal. It will settle down with use" or some such.

                      Thanks for your thoughts.

                      #643515
                      Peter Parkes 1
                      Participant
                        @peterparkes1

                        Thank you John. Thats what i need to know.

                        #643518
                        Peter Parkes 1
                        Participant
                          @peterparkes1
                          Posted by John Haine on 02/05/2023 08:17:39:

                          It's grossly excessive. If you bought the lathe new then don't attempt any rectification yourself, reject it as not fit for purpose and get a refund. Vevor have a mixed reputation, for obvious reasons!

                          Yeah, you should see the state of the quills (ill post a photo or two of the crosslide quill) and the undersides of the slides. But i was sort of getting into slowly fixing everything and eventually making it into a machine worth owning. I had figured this is what you get for a $1000 (600 quid?) Lathe.

                          Ill see what vevor will come at.

                          #643520
                          SillyOldDuffer
                          Moderator
                            @sillyoldduffer
                            Posted by Peter Parkes 1 on 02/05/2023 07:46:44:

                            Yeah, that's why im here asking about it. It really is too much play, isnt it?

                            Doesn't sound good, but:

                            How straight and round is the Aluminium rod? I guess it's extrusion stock rather than an accurate test bar. If so, a better test is put a short length of the rod in the chuck, no longer than 3x diameter, and turn it down by a millimetre or so. Then see what the DTI makes of the turned diameter. Measure how the lathe cuts, not the accuracy or otherwise of stock metal.

                            Next suspect is the chuck. Might be faulty, but If the rod isn't round, the best 3-jaw chuck in the world won't hold it straight. Take the turned rod made above and put the machined end into the jaws, leaving enough of the turned diameter protruding to test it with the DTI. It won't be perfect, but 0.05mm isn't unreasonable.

                            Have you removed and replaced the jaws? For accuracy they go into particular slots, and the chuck body is usually stamped with a zero, 1 or dot to identify the first slot (the jaws are also numbered 1,2,3)

                            If unsatisfactory, take the chuck off and make sure the back and spindle flange are clean – no paint or burrs etc.

                            With the chuck off, use the DTI to test about 10mm inside the spindle. The spindle hole should be accurately ground to take a machine taper, and bad readings here indicate bearing problems.

                            Put the chuck back on carefully, making sure it stays properly seated in the register as the nuts are tightened.

                            Don't jump too quickly to conclusions. Measuring at the 0.02mm level seems straightforward, but is actually difficult. For example, a DTI applied to a rod is only good for measuring rotating error, and running it lengthwise is untrustworthy.

                            Beginners often start by measuring their new toy, but I don't recommend it. Instead, measure the work it produces, and only when that's wrong look for causes. It's much easier to measure small work accurately with a micrometer than a big machine with a wobbly DTI.

                            Noting that mini-lathes aren't high-precision tools, working to about 0.02mm in capable hands, with luck the machine and chuck are 'good enough'. However, lemons do occasionally reach customers. What happens then depends on where you live and who it was bought from. In the UK, the supplier would normally replace or money-back a faulty machine. There's always a negotiation, sometimes painless, sometimes difficult.

                            Fingers crossed, your new lathe cuts metal as well as it should.

                            Dave

                            #643539
                            JasonB
                            Moderator
                              @jasonb

                              Did you get a test cert with the lathe? As that should show what is acceptable.

                              My Warco shows 0.08 per 100mm as the limit so even if you were using a test bar in the spindle at 300mm stickout upto 0.24mm would be in spec let alone allowing for chuck errors and a bent bar.

                              #643544
                              Peter Parkes 1
                              Participant
                                @peterparkes1

                                Thanks Dave.

                                The Al stock is just extruded bar stock. Nothing special; but it does have its ends turned down some. i did turn it down to pretty close to 30mm, a quarter inch or so from the chuck. 100 mm out, the same settings turned it down to a little over 29.5mm. something amiss. But in looking into this, I noticed that if i turned the chuck by hand the dti went waaay off. Fifteen full increments. 0.15mm. this happens with minimal pressure… just enough to begin turning the chuck. So its not that the chuck is off centre or out of round (though it may well be)…The issue is that its virtually moving from side to side with the pressure of one finger. If i can push a job that far off centre with a finger, how far is a cutting tool going to move it? (I can find out …the dti is solid)

                                I will remove the chuck and check the measurements inside the taper. But not tonight.

                                Also, my chuck jaws are all numbered 4 (all 3 of them). I will centrepunch some dots before i remove the jaws.

                                I was trying to measure the work, not the machine. But then i ran into this issue. It seems like it needs to be fixed before i can ask anything of the machine. I guess I'll see how Vevor respond.

                                Thanks for all your thoughts,Dave. And for your advice. Much appreciated.

                                Cheers,

                                Peter.

                                #643546
                                Peter Parkes 1
                                Participant
                                  @peterparkes1

                                  No cert, Jason.

                                  Heres some pictures of the crosslide quill to amuse you all…

                                  img_20230415_104554.jpg

                                  img_20230415_104609.jpg

                                  #643551
                                  JasonB
                                  Moderator
                                    @jasonb

                                    Peter, can you confirm if this 15mm either way is RUNOUT when the chuck is rotated or PLAY when pressure is applied to the end of the bar

                                    #643555
                                    Ady1
                                    Participant
                                      @ady1

                                      I haven't seen lathes or welders on Vevor UK for quite a while now

                                      I used to visit them regularly but gave up trying

                                      Edited By Ady1 on 02/05/2023 10:40:16

                                      #643557
                                      Peter Parkes 1
                                      Participant
                                        @peterparkes1

                                        Yeah, the 0.15mm is play, back and forward (away from and towerds the operator)as you put pressure on the chuck (or, i guess on the end of the bar being worked).

                                        There is no noticable runout in the bearings. They feel tight.

                                        This model is a new model for vevor here.

                                        #643559
                                        Peter Parkes 1
                                        Participant
                                          @peterparkes1
                                          #643567
                                          Ady1
                                          Participant
                                            @ady1

                                            Aha.

                                            Vevor Australia

                                            #643574
                                            Peter Parkes 1
                                            Participant
                                              @peterparkes1

                                              Hmmm. I maybe should've mentioned that.

                                              #643582
                                              Robert Atkinson 2
                                              Participant
                                                @robertatkinson2

                                                Interesting that it claims to be direct drive "no belt" with motor on spindle and shows a graphic of a outrunner type brushless DC motor. I guess it is geared. Not what I'd call direct drive.
                                                I can't find a manual online.
                                                Looks like your consumer rights are similar to UK/EU. I'd ask for my money back…

                                                Robert.

                                                Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 02/05/2023 12:33:58

                                                #643591
                                                Ex contributor
                                                Participant
                                                  @mgnbuk

                                                  Direct Drive Motor: The mini metal lathe machine adopts a direct drive motor, no belt drive, and no need to replace the belt. 800W brushless motor that provides more power and avoids the need for brush replacements, saving time and effort.

                                                  The EU Vevor site has a link to "manual" for this machine which has a cursory wiring diagram that shows only 2 wires to the motor. No parts list in the manual. Photos of the leadscrew gearing end of the headtstock show no belt or other mechanical input shaft., but there isn't a whole lot of room in a mini lathe headstock (particularly with a large bore spinlde that this machine appears to have) to build in a motor of any kind. The lowest speed of 150 rpm is less than the old geared head DC motor machines & I wonder how much power it has at this speed.

                                                  I would agree with the "send it back" route as being best option. Doesn't look like this is a straightforward headstock to start diving into. This must be a very recent development – not seen anyone else offering this configuraton yet. This arrangement would be a lot more difficult to rig up an alternative drive to when the built-in motor or drive fails, so if suitable spares are not available from the supplier (and Vevor are just "box shifters" ) then the machine is potentially totally dead.

                                                  Interesting that this has appeared just a few days after such spinlde drives were mooted on another thread !

                                                  Nigel B.

                                                  ps. That gib strip looks a bit grim.

                                                  #643593
                                                  Ian P
                                                  Participant
                                                    @ianp

                                                    I regard all the product descriptions given on Banggood, Aliexpress, Vevor and Amazon as purely a 'guide' rather than an exact and true definition of what is being sold. Amazon seem to get away largely by just showing as little as possible rather than a full description.

                                                    The Australian Vevor lathe linked to by the OP has a 'Main material' of HT200 Cast iron with a lifespan of 3 years! what on Earth is that meant to mean?

                                                    Regarding the drive/motor arrangement. They do stress the 'no belt' drive and I find it unlikely they would use a geared drive, it would be nice to think that the direct drive motor has a large hollow spindle but its probably my wishful thinking.

                                                    If it is a direct drive motor then one would hope that the spindle design and the bearings its mounted on are in keeping with it being a lathe headstock rather than just a general purpose brushless motor.

                                                    Ian P

                                                    #643598
                                                    JasonB
                                                    Moderator
                                                      @jasonb

                                                      I see a friend Mr Ali who sends things express delivery does a "Built-in 1.1kw Motor Headstock" which would seem to look like a motor wrapped around a spindle with suitable chuck mounting flange so quite possible what is inside this lathe

                                                      Edited By JasonB on 02/05/2023 13:56:42

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