cutting a square end on a round shaft?

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cutting a square end on a round shaft?

Home Forums Beginners questions cutting a square end on a round shaft?

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 38 total)
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  • #601531
    jon hill 3
    Participant
      @jonhill3

      I am in the process of making an additional chuck key when I realised I didnt know how to cut the square end…. I initially thought a rotary table might do the job on the myford speed 10 or proxon miller, however that still leaves the problem of holding the work to the rotary table?

      I am sure there are many ways to do this and any and all suggestions are welcome especially with the tools that I have.

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      #11238
      jon hill 3
      Participant
        @jonhill3
        #601532
        noel shelley
        Participant
          @noelshelley55608

          A good file, a vice and some skill ! If you use the right size bar then there will be not to much metal to remove. KISS. Noel.

          #601535
          ega
          Participant
            @ega

            Square Stevenson's block from Arc?

            #601536
            Jon Lawes
            Participant
              @jonlawes51698

              Second vote for the Stevensons block, it does mean collets too, but those are a very useful addition to the workshop. I got my square and hex stevensons blocks plus collets from Arc too.

              #601537
              mgnbuk
              Participant
                @mgnbuk

                I cut a replacement chuck key square on a Boxford shaper before I got a milling machine, using a set square of the table against the first cut flat to set up for the next one. Repeated until all four flats completed. Shaft was sat on a parallel in the vice. Calculated the depth of cut from the O/D, measured progress on the first flat & zeroed the tool slide at the finished size & cut the remaining 3 flats to the same setting – finished square was a nice snug fit in the chuck jaw recesses.

                Might not be absolutely dead-on square, but the chuck doesn't complain & I'm still using the key with no noticable difference in fit after several years.

                Nigel B.

                #601538
                Hopper
                Participant
                  @hopper

                  Hold an end mill cutter in the three jaw chuck of the lathe. Clamp the job in or to the toolpost and mill the first flat on it. Use a try square to rotate the job 180 degrees and mill the second flat. Then rotate it by 90 degrees by using either a steel ruler across the flats, or one of those magnetic digital levels. Then repeat to 180 to do the 4th flat.

                  Of course if you have a vertical slide, you just clamp the job to a T slot and use the same principles.

                  dscn0296.jpg

                  No it does not give the sort of accuracy for cutting gears but plenty good enough for squares and hexagons for spanners etc. I do it all the time that way. And yes the three jaw lathe chuck will hold a milling cutter without it winding in. Been doing it for years without a mishap. (famous last words!!)

                  In your case, clamping to the toolpost should do the job.

                  #601539
                  SillyOldDuffer
                  Moderator
                    @sillyoldduffer

                    The easiest way is to fit a chuck to the rotary table. It centres jobs like your chuck key on the table's axis, making it straightforward to cut the four faces of the square with a milling machine. Might be possible to attach your lathe's chuck, but chucks for rotary tables usually have four bolts passing through the chuck's body so they can be undone from the front. The bolts engage with T-nuts in the rotary table's slots. If you haven't got a suitable chuck, welcome to the wonderful world of model engineering, in which there's always some new accessory wanted!

                    Rotary tables shine when other than right angles are needed, otherwise not essential because other methods produce right angles. I made my chuck keys by gripping the shaft in an vice on the milling table with the end sticking out enough to receive the end of the milling cutter. After the first flat was cut, I turned the shaft 90 degrees in the vice and used a set-square against the face to get it exactly* vertical. Then cut the second and other faces in the same way.

                    If you don't have a machine vice, the shaft can be clamped directly to the milling table. It's a little more bother adjusting it compared with a vice.

                    *exactly needs some qualification. A casually used set-square will get close enough to 90 degrees for most purposes, but on this job the short face length and fiddling with the shaft in the vice limits accuracy. The vice problem is much reduced if it already has a V-slot jaw, or V blocks are used, to keep the shaft horizontal. Good news, chuck keys don't need to be anything like accurately square! I wouldn't risk it, but I'm sure our more accomplished brethren could eyeball a good enough square end on a chuck key, not just with a milling machine, but by hand filing it in a bench vice.

                    Work-holding, especially of odd shapes, is a skill in it's own right.

                    Dave

                    #601540
                    Hopper
                    Participant
                      @hopper
                      Have a look about the 8 minute mark.
                      #601541
                      Anonymous

                        Turn down the end of the bar to the required diagonal dimension, minus a few tens of thou. Then file the flats. Since the starting diameter is slightly smaller than theoretically correct, a small chamfer should be left on each corner. Keeping the chamfers the same size, and parallel, will ensure that the flats are just that, flat and parallel to the opposite face. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

                        Andrew

                        #601544
                        Jon Lawes
                        Participant
                          @jonlawes51698

                          I'm a bit nervous of holding Milling cutters in a 3 Jaw for some of the methods mentioned above, but I'm quite timid with some things.

                          #601547
                          Hopper
                          Participant
                            @hopper
                            Posted by Andrew Johnston on 13/06/2022 10:56:45:

                            Turn down the end of the bar to the required diagonal dimension, minus a few tens of thou. Then file the flats. Since the starting diameter is slightly smaller than theoretically correct, a small chamfer should be left on each corner. Keeping the chamfers the same size, and parallel, will ensure that the flats are just that, flat and parallel to the opposite face. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

                            Andrew

                            Filing rollers that you fitted to the lathe toolpost while holding the job in the lathe chuck so you could file down to a set level and nice and straight used to be a popular home workshop item but seem to have gone out of fashion these days, maybe due to the availability of cheap milling cutters and even milling machines for the home shop.

                            #601548
                            Anonymous
                              Posted by Hopper on 13/06/2022 11:33:47:
                              Filing rollers that you fitted to the lathe toolpost while holding the job in the lathe chuck…

                              That opens another can of worms. Should the rollers be hardened or left soft? Same applies to filing buttons, hard or soft?

                              Andrew

                              #601549
                              Roger Woollett
                              Participant
                                @rogerwoollett53105

                                I have clamped the work direct to the milling machine table using the tee slot. Use a sqaure when rotating to the next face.

                                tslot2.jpgtslot1.jpg

                                #601554
                                Hopper
                                Participant
                                  @hopper
                                  Posted by Andrew Johnston on 13/06/2022 11:44:38:

                                  Posted by Hopper on 13/06/2022 11:33:47:
                                  Filing rollers that you fitted to the lathe toolpost while holding the job in the lathe chuck…

                                  That opens another can of worms. Should the rollers be hardened or left soft? Same applies to filing buttons, hard or soft?

                                  Andrew

                                  I use hardened silver steel filing buttons. No tempering. No noticeable damage to any files if used sensibly.

                                  And LH Sparey calls for hardened rollers on filing jigs, which is good enough for me. Hard to imagine rolling action doing any damage to a file.

                                  #601555
                                  Nick Wheeler
                                  Participant
                                    @nickwheeler

                                    if you're going to file it in the lathe, then you could use the jaws of a four-jaw chuck to provide the indexing.

                                    But a chuck doesn't need much precision of either the square or concentricity to the stock, so mark out and file in the vice. Or mill to the lines by eye. It's not worth lots of setup time for such a simple job.

                                    #601556
                                    blowlamp
                                    Participant
                                      @blowlamp

                                      If you've got a milling machine, then clamp the bar upright in the vise and machine the four sides. Use a ball-nose tool if you want a radiused corner.

                                      Martin.

                                      #601557
                                      Hopper
                                      Participant
                                        @hopper
                                        Posted by Jon Lawes on 13/06/2022 11:14:51:

                                        I'm a bit nervous of holding Milling cutters in a 3 Jaw for some of the methods mentioned above, but I'm quite timid with some things.

                                        Never had one move yet (Famous last words!) ranging from 1" diameter in the 3-jaw down to 1/8" diameter set to run dead true in the four jaw. Both chucks ancient Myford fittings. Ditto on my even more ancient Drummond. I think if we were taking deep cuts at high feeds in industry, it would be a different matter. But the lathe and vertical slide are so comparatively flexible that you have to take shallow cuts at fine feed anyway so I have never had a problem with the legendary cutter being pulled out. Mind you, I do have a firm hand with the chuck key.

                                        1" Cutter on 1" steel plate. Luvly.

                                        dscn0593.jpg

                                        Edited By Hopper on 13/06/2022 12:27:17

                                        #601569
                                        Ramon Wilson
                                        Participant
                                          @ramonwilson3
                                          Posted by Andrew Johnston on 13/06/2022 11:44:38:

                                          Posted by Hopper on 13/06/2022 11:33:47:
                                          Filing rollers that you fitted to the lathe toolpost while holding the job in the lathe chuck…

                                          That opens another can of worms. Should the rollers be hardened or left soft? Same applies to filing buttons, hard or soft?

                                          Andrew

                                          'If they are hard then they should not roll as the file touches but need to be free to roll if left soft'

                                          . Well that's what I was told when first starting out by an old school, full size and model engineer (served his apprenticeship at Garretts of Leiston when they were still making traction engines)

                                          Always worked for me Andrew

                                          Tug

                                          #601573
                                          SillyOldDuffer
                                          Moderator
                                            @sillyoldduffer
                                            Posted by Andrew Johnston on 13/06/2022 10:56:45:

                                            Turn down the end of the bar to the required diagonal dimension, minus a few tens of thou. Then file the flats. Since the starting diameter is slightly smaller than theoretically correct, a small chamfer should be left on each corner. Keeping the chamfers the same size, and parallel, will ensure that the flats are just that, flat and parallel to the opposite face. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

                                            Andrew

                                            Like it, fiendish!

                                            The diagonal is is square root of twice the flat and 'a few tenths' is about 0.01mm.

                                            So, for an 8mm square,

                                            diagonal = sqrt( 2 * 8 * 8 ) or 11.31mm

                                            So the shaft would be turned to 11.30mm or a little less

                                            Or for Imperial Fanboys, a 3/8" square,

                                            diagonal = sqrt( 2 * 3/8 * 3/8)

                                            diagonal = sqrt( 18/64 )

                                            diagonal = sqrt( 9/32 )

                                            diagonal = sqrt(9) / sqrt(32)

                                            sadly, because I don't know how to calculate sqrt(32) as a fraction,

                                            diagonal = 3 / 5.66 = 0.53", less a few tenths, say 0.5295 inches.

                                            Dave

                                            #601574
                                            Anonymous

                                              A few tens of thou, not a few tenths. smile

                                              Andrew

                                              #601577
                                              AdrianR
                                              Participant
                                                @adrianr18614

                                                If your chuck key is not too long, clamp it in your mill vice vertically. Then using the X/Y cut the square. No need for the rotary table.

                                                #601578
                                                SillyOldDuffer
                                                Moderator
                                                  @sillyoldduffer
                                                  Posted by Andrew Johnston on 13/06/2022 15:51:45:

                                                  A few tens of thou, not a few tenths. smile

                                                  Andrew

                                                  Is there a difference? Oh dear … blush

                                                  #601579
                                                  Martin Kyte
                                                  Participant
                                                    @martinkyte99762

                                                    Of course if you really want to be adventurous you could forge it.

                                                    (. . . yes I know, you actually wanted a real one).

                                                    regards Martin

                                                    Edited By Martin Kyte on 13/06/2022 16:20:20

                                                    #601580
                                                    ega
                                                    Participant
                                                      @ega
                                                      Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/06/2022 16:17:53:

                                                      Posted by Andrew Johnston on 13/06/2022 15:51:45:

                                                      A few tens of thou, not a few tenths. smile

                                                      Andrew

                                                      Is there a difference? Oh dear … blush

                                                      My experience of commercial chuck keys is that they are invariably a loose fit.

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