Work Holding for Facing

Advert

Work Holding for Facing

Home Forums Beginners questions Work Holding for Facing

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 30 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #595666
    felis concolor
    Participant
      @felisconcolor37847

      Gents,

      I have a work-holding question I'm hoping that you can help provide a solution to, please.

      The material is a length of truck leaf spring, possibly 5160, roughly 3" x 5" x .330" thick.

      Is there a safe way, to either hold this in a 4 jaw chuck or hold it to a face plate for facing on the ML7?

      The plan is to face it on one side, then flip it over and face the other side, machining down the thickness to .250".

      Yes……there is an "arc" to the work piece as is, being a truck spring, but I will flatten it the best that I can in a 20 ton press before any facing or milling.

      I've never faced material this shape nor of this size before……yep, a newbie just learning. The thought of facing this stock in an amongst protruding clamps or chuck jaws is somewhat daunting.

      The other question I have, is a sharp HSS tool up to the task of facing 5160? Of course I have no way of knowing exactly what steel this truck spring cut-off is for certainty, only that it is spring steel and maybe it is 5160.

      If this cannot be done on a ML7, I do have a Taig mill that I will attempt the same procedure on.

      Thanks for your thots.

      Advert
      #11190
      felis concolor
      Participant
        @felisconcolor37847
        #595670
        Anonymous

          I suspect you'll be wasting time unless the material is fully annealed. If you remove one side of spring material it is unlikely to stay flat. Better to start with known material than waste time with unknown material.

          I'd face something that size on the mill, but I have a large mill. Alternatively I'd use a 4-jaw chuck in the lathe. Depending upon the hardness/temper HSS tooling may, or may not, work.

          Andrew

          #595671
          John Haine
          Participant
            @johnhaine32865

            If this not annealed so it's still springy, I don't think your press will flatten it at all; it would be very didgy to hold it in a 4-jaw, and I don't think your Taig mill would touch it. If what you want is a 1/4" bit of steel I think you would best just buy a bit. At the very least you should get the steel cherry-red hot and hold it there for a few minutes and let it cool very slowly to anneal it before trying to machine it. Might make it easier to flaqtten too.

            #595673
            felis concolor
            Participant
              @felisconcolor37847

              I will attempt annealing it. No time like the present to learn something new, be it success or failure.

              Removing most of the arc is simple in a 20 ton press. I re-arc truck springs in it without difficulty. This piece will be no different.

              Yes, it may take multiple machining operations on both sides to remove the relieved stresses from machining. Annealing should help with this too.

              My first choice would be to machine this on the ML7. How would you go about holding this piece for this purpose?

              #595675
              Ady1
              Participant
                @ady1

                Removing most of the arc is simple in a 20 ton press

                Lucky you. What sort of unit is it? Big? small? etc

                #595677
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  Rather depends on what size 4-jaw you have for the myford, I you have one of the slim body 6" ones then no problem to hold in that with two opposite jaws reversed A 5" should also do it but would need all jaws reversed.

                  If you started with a longer bit you could drill & CSK the ends so it could be bolted to the faceplate then cut off the ends once you have it down to thickness.

                  Edited By JasonB on 24/04/2022 18:17:17

                  #595682
                  felis concolor
                  Participant
                    @felisconcolor37847

                    Thanks Jason.
                    Drilling and countersinking us an option. Good thot.
                    I may also tig a piece of square stock to the back of it, machine it, flip, repeat. That would provide something for the 4 jaw to hold onto.

                    For annealing the lengths that i have, i am going to put them in the woodstove for maybe 3 cycles of evening and night burning. Three good long 12 hour plus heat soaks. Will see if this works or not. Seems forging bladesmiths have done this to spring steel to anneal it, with success, so they claim.

                    #595686
                    duncan webster 1
                    Participant
                      @duncanwebster1

                      Can you cut it overlength, hole in each end, bolt to faceplate. When you flip it over you'll need a packer underneath as obviously you cant face where the bolts are

                      #595689
                      GordonH
                      Participant
                        @gordonh

                        Hmm. If there's any stress left in the steel, will it bend the faceplate when you skim the top?

                        #595695
                        SillyOldDuffer
                        Moderator
                          @sillyoldduffer
                          Posted by duncan webster on 24/04/2022 19:24:08:

                          Can you cut it overlength, hole in each end, bolt to faceplate. When you flip it over you'll need a packer underneath as obviously you cant face where the bolts are

                          Same idea, but cut a rough pair of flats with an angle grinder to take strap clamps that are bolted down to the faceplate. The plate is blocked up on a piece of wood to allow the cutter to clear the bolt heads.

                          faceplate.jpg

                          If there's not enough room on the faceplate for a straight strap angled from the lip to under the bolt-head, then make some Z or C-shaped clamps to fit.

                          Dave

                          #595702
                          DMB
                          Participant
                            @dmb

                            Yet another problem not mentioned by previous posters here. Topslides are set up to face work slightly concave. If work is faced across the diameter of a faceplate, it may well not end up dead flat.

                            Might be best to rough out the work in 4jaw as described above, in order to get the bulk of metal removal done quickly then transfer it to mill table, using low profile clamps on the edges, as per Harold Halls.

                            Edited By DMB on 24/04/2022 22:03:21

                            #595706
                            Robert Butler
                            Participant
                              @robertbutler92161

                              A significant amount of work and ingenuity required to obtain a section of steel 5" x 3" x .25".

                              Robert Butler

                              #595713
                              Paul Lousick
                              Participant
                                @paullousick59116

                                Why do you want to use and old truck leaf spring ?

                                A description of what you want to achieve will allow us to give better advice.

                                #595714
                                Hopper
                                Participant
                                  @hopper
                                  Posted by DMB on 24/04/2022 21:57:28:

                                  Yet another problem not mentioned by previous posters here. Topslides are set up to face work slightly concave. If work is faced across the diameter of a faceplate, it may well not end up flat.

                                  Edited By DMB on 24/04/2022 22:03:21

                                  Not an issue really. Factory setting 60 years ago would have been between dead flat and half a thou concave over the width of the faceplate. But after 60 years of wear, who knows?

                                  #595715
                                  Hopper
                                  Participant
                                    @hopper

                                    If its anealed and pressed flat you can hold it with all four chuck jaws reversed. Set it up "diagonally" so two jaws bear on one of the longest sides. The other two jaws bear on the opposite side. This is a common procedure and works well.

                                    Pack the plate up with small packing pieces behind it so it sticks out past the reversed jaws by just more than you want to remove. This is easiest done with chuck laid down flat on the bench. You can remove the packing pieces if you want after final tightening on the lathe. I use light aluminium pieces and leave them in place if they are not loose. Or bent U shaped packing pieces that are trapped in situ.

                                    #595717
                                    Hopper
                                    Participant
                                      @hopper

                                      dscn3412.jpg

                                      This pic shows the basic principle of "diagonal" work holding jaw positions for the four jaw chuck.

                                      But I like Duncan's idea to cut your piece of spring longer than required by say two inches, and  drill holes in the ends and bolt straight through to the faceplate . Machine the middle section and cut off the ends afterwards. Elegant in its simplicity and no chance of anything moving.

                                      For interrupted cut on a large piece like yours, use low rpm, like backgear medium pulley.

                                      Edited By Hopper on 25/04/2022 01:44:32

                                      Edited By Hopper on 25/04/2022 02:02:42

                                      #595718
                                      Hopper
                                      Participant
                                        @hopper
                                        Posted by GordonH on 24/04/2022 19:45:12:

                                        Hmm. If there's any stress left in the steel, will it bend the faceplate when you skim the top?

                                        Unlikely. The Myford faceplate is pretty stout with reinforcing ribs in the back.

                                        #595731
                                        SillyOldDuffer
                                        Moderator
                                          @sillyoldduffer
                                          Posted by John Haine on 24/04/2022 17:25:49:

                                          If this not annealed so it's still springy, I don't think your press will flatten it at all…

                                          That was my thought too, but then Felis said ' Removing most of the arc is simple in a 20 ton press. I re-arc truck springs in it without difficulty. This piece will be no different.'

                                          Simply squeezing a leaf-spring between two flat anvils wouldn't flatten it permanently because the spring isn't taken beyond the elastic limit. But it could be straightened by bending it backwards over a fulcrum until the elastic limit is exceeded. Trouble is, bending a spring past the elastic limit damages it. Possibly it doesn't matter, for example piano wire can be wound into an effective coil spring without annealling and requenching.

                                          My guess is Felis has access to a heap of scrap truck springs and hopes to use them as a cheap source of metal. I suspect it won't machine even if annealled. He's probably right that it's 5160, which I see on the web is tough stuff. Searching '5160 machineability' brings up discouraging statements like: While not easily welded or machined, 5160 steel can be heat-treated, annealed, and hot worked into shape. Leaded mild-steel (EN1APb) is much easier to machine than most other steels. (US equivalent, 12L14)

                                          Dave

                                          #595733
                                          JasonB
                                          Moderator
                                            @jasonb

                                            Over a 5" length I doubt the arc is enough to warrant trying to flatten it unless it's a very elliptical spring. face one side to remove the crest then flip it over to remove what is left which will be thicker at the ends

                                            #595770
                                            felis concolor
                                            Participant
                                              @felisconcolor37847
                                              Posted by Paul Lousick on 25/04/2022 00:13:24:

                                              Why do you want to use and old truck leaf spring ?

                                              A description of what you want to achieve will allow us to give better advice.

                                              I didn't say that the stock was from an old truck leaf spring.

                                              The pieces are cut-offs, from new, unused truck leaf springs, obtained from my local spring shop.

                                              #595773
                                              felis concolor
                                              Participant
                                                @felisconcolor37847
                                                Posted by Hopper on 25/04/2022 01:18:48:

                                                If its anealed and pressed flat you can hold it with all four chuck jaws reversed. Set it up "diagonally" so two jaws bear on one of the longest sides. The other two jaws bear on the opposite side. This is a common procedure and works well.

                                                Pack the plate up with small packing pieces behind it so it sticks out past the reversed jaws by just more than you want to remove. This is easiest done with chuck laid down flat on the bench. You can remove the packing pieces if you want after final tightening on the lathe. I use light aluminium pieces and leave them in place if they are not loose. Or bent U shaped packing pieces that are trapped in situ.

                                                Thank you Hopper.

                                                I did consider this as an option before posting here, but not having faced anything this large before, I wasn't confident that it was safe and do-able. Good to know how others would tackle this.

                                                #595774
                                                felis concolor
                                                Participant
                                                  @felisconcolor37847
                                                  Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 25/04/2022 08:34:45:

                                                  Posted by John Haine on 24/04/2022 17:25:49:

                                                  If this not annealed so it's still springy, I don't think your press will flatten it at all…

                                                  That was my thought too, but then Felis said ' Removing most of the arc is simple in a 20 ton press. I re-arc truck springs in it without difficulty. This piece will be no different.'

                                                  Simply squeezing a leaf-spring between two flat anvils wouldn't flatten it permanently because the spring isn't taken beyond the elastic limit. But it could be straightened by bending it backwards over a fulcrum until the elastic limit is exceeded. Trouble is, bending a spring past the elastic limit damages it. Possibly it doesn't matter, for example piano wire can be wound into an effective coil spring without annealling and requenching.

                                                  My guess is Felis has access to a heap of scrap truck springs and hopes to use them as a cheap source of metal. I suspect it won't machine even if annealled. He's probably right that it's 5160, which I see on the web is tough stuff. Searching '5160 machineability' brings up discouraging statements like: While not easily welded or machined, 5160 steel can be heat-treated, annealed, and hot worked into shape. Leaded mild-steel (EN1APb) is much easier to machine than most other steels. (US equivalent, 12L14)

                                                  Dave

                                                  Yes, this is how leaf springs are re-worked. Bending the steel past "flat", measure, repeat. Same idea for a shorter length.

                                                  Yes, I have access to cut-offs, from new, unused truck springs.

                                                  #595775
                                                  felis concolor
                                                  Participant
                                                    @felisconcolor37847
                                                    Posted by JasonB on 25/04/2022 08:41:10:

                                                    Over a 5" length I doubt the arc is enough to warrant trying to flatten it unless it's a very elliptical spring. face one side to remove the crest then flip it over to remove what is left which will be thicker at the ends

                                                    Yes, maybe 2mm of "arc" on a short length, so not much at all.

                                                    #595778
                                                    Jon Lawes
                                                    Participant
                                                      @jonlawes51698

                                                      We do get a lot of questions where people are reluctant to fill in the gaps of info which they may not feel is relevant but actually would help quite a lot with the answer.

                                                      Is the intention to use this metal for practice? Is it a cheap source of steel which you feel you could use for multiple projects? Have you chosen this metal because it suits the end product? I sense from your guarded posts you don't really feel the intention is relevant, but it really honestly does help as when we know the intention we can assist with giving you information on the best way to achieve it.

                                                      This is all written with the best possible intentions to assist where possible.

                                                    Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 30 total)
                                                    • Please log in to reply to this topic. Registering is free and easy using the links on the menu at the top of this page.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Latest Replies

                                                    Home Forums Beginners questions Topics

                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)
                                                    Viewing 25 topics - 1 through 25 (of 25 total)

                                                    View full reply list.

                                                    Advert

                                                    Newsletter Sign-up