Running a Myford S7 in Reverse

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Running a Myford S7 in Reverse

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  • #584488
    Mitch Lees 1
    Participant
      @mitchlees1

      I want to have a go at screw cutting on my Super 7 and it seems that by running the lathe in reverse I can cut away from the chuck – hopefully less stressful! However, I have read that the chuck can unscrew with disasterous consequences! Is some kind of draw bar arrangement the only answer, or is there another solution. Stupid question: is there some way to fit a camlock type chuck – would this help. Any ideas most welcome. Beginner so please bear with me.

      Mitch

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      #11115
      Mitch Lees 1
      Participant
        @mitchlees1
        #584491
        Mike Poole
        Participant
          @mikepoole82104

          I know it feels safer to cut away from the chuck but it is probably worth practicing disengaging the half nuts which can be done very precisely with a bit of practice, as you have a super 7 you have a clutch to stop the spindle and as screw cutting is usually done at slow spindle speed to give you a decent reaction time it is not as hard as you think to stop the spindle as well if cutting metric threads. I think someone has linked to the Oxtool demo on YouTube of how the threading indicator can be useful even when cutting metric threads.

          Mike
          Oxtool video

          Edited By Mike Poole on 07/02/2022 19:17:07

          #584493
          bernard towers
          Participant
            @bernardtowers37738

            Been screwcutting I’m my S7 for more than 30 years and have never had a problem. The great thing with the S7 is the mainshaft locking pin enabling the chuck to be well tightened. Also when you consider that the forces for screwcutting are much lighter than for normal turning operatios

            #584496
            Bazyle
            Participant
              @bazyle

              You will be screwcutting in back gear so it is pretty slow anyway. However it is also a good idea anyway to make a mandrel handle so you can go even slower and provide rapid braking if necessary. Also reverse can then be applied quite quickly but remember to withdraw the tool first.

              #584500
              Martin Kyte
              Participant
                @martinkyte99762

                You ask is there another solution, well you could always convert to left hand threads if you are screw cutting internal and external mating halves.

                regards Martin

                #584509
                Chris Crew
                Participant
                  @chriscrew66644

                  Screw cutting is not a race. The tool removes exactly the same amount of material whether the work is revolving a 1 r.p.m. or 1000 r.p.m. so you should have plenty of time to release the half-nuts and withdraw the tool and even if you don't withdraw the tool at the same time it will only cut round groove at the end of the thread. In fact if you were to be using a lathe with an Ainjest rapid threader it does this anyway as there is no automatic withdrawal at the end of the cut when the device trips, so it is accepted practice.

                  You will be surprised just how easy screw-cutting is when you have done it a couple of times and you can get quite adept at releasing the half-nuts and withdrawing the tool in no time at all. BTW, when you come to cut an internal thread I recommend inverting the tool and cutting the thread on the rear face of the bore. This means you still withdraw the tool, rather than advancing it, at the end of the cut and thus alleviates any risk of forgetting to reverse the withdrawing action and causing a disaster.

                  #584510
                  Huub
                  Participant
                    @huub

                    You could place the tool upside down at the backside of the lathe. Then you don't need to change the rotation of the spindle.

                    #584512
                    duncan webster 1
                    Participant
                      @duncanwebster1
                      Posted by Huub Buis on 07/02/2022 22:53:36:

                      You could place the tool upside down at the backside of the lathe. Then you don't need to change the rotation of the spindle.

                      Doesn't make any difference, feed is still towards chuck with lathe running forwards. Bottom speed back gear is really slow, just practice dropping the half nuts out with the tool clear of the job, it's not difficult. When you finally get to cutting metal machine a groove for the tool to run out. I learned doing 1" whit studs,i wouldn't recommend that as a starting point on a S7

                      #584515
                      Nick Wheeler
                      Participant
                        @nickwheeler
                        Posted by Bazyle on 07/02/2022 20:41:31:

                        You will be screwcutting in back gear so it is pretty slow anyway. However it is also a good idea anyway to make a mandrel handle so you can go even slower and provide rapid braking if necessary. Also reverse can then be applied quite quickly but remember to withdraw the tool first.

                        my WM250 doesn't have back gear, and so far hasn't needed it.

                        I tend to screwcut larger threads that aren't worth buying tap and dies for, or that would be too much work. This

                        turningnewheadbolt.jpg

                        is a new headstock bolt for a 200kg bell, that needed M20 threads on each end. The end you can see there needs about 100mm of thread, so doing it efficiently was important: I cut it at about 120rpm and 0.2 DOC for all but the last spring passes. The test piece I did was more like 200rpm, but I didn't have enough material to remake the job if I screwed up.

                        Here's the rest of the parts

                        repairedclapper.jpg

                        that have been in use for over two years; my bolt has a relief at the end of each thread unlike the original die cut one that failed noisily…

                        #584519
                        Hopper
                        Participant
                          @hopper

                          If you don't have the hand-eye co-ordination to disengage the halfnuts before hitting the chuck at low rpm such as backgear speeds etc, you probably are not safe to be using a lathe.

                          Take a bit of scrap bar and practice cutting a thread on it a few inches away from the chuck so there is room for error. Put a felt mark on the bar and practice disengaging the halfnuts as you get to the mark. You will soon get the hang of it and find it no big trick to disengage within a quarter or even eighth of a turn of the same spot every time without fail. And practice retracting the tool at the same time so you dont need to turn a finishing groove in the job.

                          With a bit of practice you will be able to screwcut comfortably at the highest backgear speed of about 90rpm or whatever.

                          #584875
                          Mitch Lees 1
                          Participant
                            @mitchlees1

                            Thanks very much guys for the advice and encouragement. I have now managed to cut a few quite passable BSF threads – cutting in the conventional direction! My desire to investigate cutting the threads with the lathe in reverse stemmed from watching YouTube videos from 3 of the well known machining gurus, who recommended the reverse method. Anyway it has been very satisfying to have accomplished it.

                            For the project I am doing I will now need to delve into the mysteries of trying to cut some metric threads with my imperial Super7B. Even though my lathe has a gearbox, I do have the full set of change gears, but I don’t suppose any of these will help me though. I am sure there must be a ‘how to do it’ somewhere on the forum, or in back issues. I would be grateful for a pointer.

                            thanks again

                            mitch

                            #584885
                            Hopper
                            Participant
                              @hopper

                              Well done. You are better than those YouTube self-appointed gurus!

                              Yes I am sure the metric on imperial with QC gearbox has been discussed on here before. If you do a search of the site using the Google search facility on the homepage, not the one at the top of the forum page, you should find them. Depends on what change gears you have in your "full set" as to how you go.

                              Forum member Brian Wood has written the definitive book on the subject: "Gearing of Lathes for Screwcutting" if you you really want to get into it.

                              Edited By Hopper on 10/02/2022 14:12:49

                              #584891
                              John Hinkley
                              Participant
                                @johnhinkley26699

                                It's been mentioned in the thread "four index thread indicator", that an electronic lead screw obviates the need for all the rigmarole of change gears, chuck direction and clasp nut engagement problems. That is certainly the case.

                                I consider it to be the most useful addition that I've made to any of my workshop machines. I used the design developed by James Clough on youtube, buying-in the pcb that he sells. It is configurable for any lead screw pitch (imperial or metric) and a number of screw pitches as well as controlling the direction of rotation of the lead screw for right- and left-hand threads. An added bonus is a spindle rev counter. It wasn't cheap, I'll admit, but I consider it money well spent.

                                John

                                #584892
                                JohnF
                                Participant
                                  @johnf59703

                                  Mitch, have a look at this thread for metric threads on a Myford with a gearbox **LINK**

                                  As far as cutting in reverse unless it's a very large course thread its unlikely to cause you a problem, I do it regularly when cutting internal threads in a blind bore.

                                  John

                                  #584894
                                  Speedy Builder5
                                  Participant
                                    @speedybuilder5

                                    Forward or backwards, I never understood why we choose the correct cutting speed for ordinary turning, but for screw cutting we use very slow speeds. Obviously there is a problem of engaging / disengaging the half nuts or even dog clutches at speed and the reason why slow cutting speeds are used. So how come we end up with acceptable thread finish at slow speed.

                                    There are auto retract tool holders that help us to increase cutting speed, but these are not used by many of us hobby engineers.

                                    Bob

                                    #584909
                                    Mitch Lees 1
                                    Participant
                                      @mitchlees1

                                      Hopper, thanks, I will order the book today.

                                      johnF, thanks, really good thread. I was going to try and buy the metric conversion set, but really did not fancy dismantling the whole thing every time I wanted to go to lmperial threads. The 2 new gear solution looks good. As I suspected they are not in the set of change gears I have.

                                      John Hinckley, thanks, I like watching James. He is in a totally different league, but as I am more comfortable with cnc routing set-ups than I am with thread cutting, I will probably be able to follow him. I will watch with interest.

                                      mitch

                                      #584921
                                      Neil Lickfold
                                      Participant
                                        @neillickfold44316
                                        Posted by Mitch Lees on 07/02/2022 18:47:29:

                                        I want to have a go at screw cutting on my Super 7 and it seems that by running the lathe in reverse I can cut away from the chuck – hopefully less stressful! However, I have read that the chuck can unscrew with disasterous consequences! Is some kind of draw bar arrangement the only answer, or is there another solution. Stupid question: is there some way to fit a camlock type chuck – would this help. Any ideas most welcome. Beginner so please bear with me.

                                        Mitch

                                        You can use the clutch to stop the thread cutting very effectively. I don't disengage the half nut when screw cutting. I create a thread runout area, either for the external or internal threads. If the thread pitch is fairly course, ie over 20tpi or over 1.25mm pitch, I just used the back gear to slow it down, to give more time. Then turn off the motor, reverse motor direction, wind away from the cut,(retract the tool) and use the clutch to engage and wind back to the beginning. Now that I have a VFD(variable frequency drive) I use a micro switch to stop the lathe when it gets to the run out area. Seldom do I cut threads without a thread relief area, as it prevents chipping of the threading tool. In this video you can see it stopping in the thread run out area. It generally will stop within 0.1mm every time. By hand , you would run in the lower rpm range and just disengage the clutch.

                                        #584945
                                        Dennis Pataki
                                        Participant
                                          @dennispataki22631

                                          I find screw cutting by manual turning the lathe spindle with with an insert crank handle to work very well. You have total control of everything and no chance of a crash or anything disastrous like that.

                                          When returning for another cut, just withdraw the tool and crank in the opposite direction. No need for a thread indicator dial.

                                          When using this method, I disengage the bull gear from the spindle so the only load is on the gearing, lead screw, and carriage. For most usual threads this takes surprisingly little effort.

                                          Before anyone dismisses this idea, I suggest you give it a try first. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

                                          #584953
                                          Emgee
                                          Participant
                                            @emgee

                                            My method for internal threading for a M71x1 telescope to camera adapter.

                                            **LINK**

                                            Emgee

                                            #584954
                                            Hopper
                                            Participant
                                              @hopper

                                              Yes, I recently made a crank handle for my ML7 and it's one of those "why did I not make one of these years ago" things. Super useful.

                                              #585112
                                              peak4
                                              Participant
                                                @peak4

                                                There's other reasons for running the Myford backwards as well as screwcutting.

                                                When I picked up a part built Quorn, I needed to re-cut the taper in the main spindle.
                                                I set the whole spindle tube up in a couple of fixes steadies, so the spindle ran in its own bearings.
                                                The taper was re-cut to get it central again, correcting the original builder's error; The top slide was in the normal position and used conventionally with a boring tool.

                                                Whilst the top slide was set over, it made sense to turn up more arbors for the grinding wheels.
                                                Yes I could have cut the tapers conventionally, with the tool at the front of the work, but that would mean the thin end would be at the chuck, and I couldn't easily turn the taper, parallel portion and the thread on the thin end, all at the same setting.

                                                By running the lathe in reverse, I could cut on the back of the workpiece, have the thick end at the chuck, turn the parallel section(s) and also add the thread at the end with a Herbert die head, and everything was guaranteed concentric.

                                                A drawbar in the 4 jaw is easy, as the throat through the chuck is larger than the hole through the backplate, so a simple washer, threaded rod and a nut will suffice.
                                                The 3 jaw (Griptru) is a bit more awkward, as the holes are the same size, however there is a gap between the front of the backplate register and the recess in the back of the chuck.
                                                Again a large washer is used, but this time with a taper on the edge, and two large flats, such that it will fit sideways up the bore, and then cockle over into position.

                                                It does obviously restrict the length of a workpiece, but no danger of the chuck coming loose whatever work you are doing.

                                                Bill

                                                #585122
                                                Mitch Lees 1
                                                Participant
                                                  @mitchlees1

                                                  Peak4,

                                                  thanks for that insight. My Pratt Burnard Chuck has a bore the same as the spindle and so I cannot fit a washer for a draw bar. Consequently, when I was going to cut threads in reverse, I had decided to buy a new, larger chuck with a correspondingly larger bore so allowing the draw bar washer to bear on the backplate. This seemed like an expensive solution! Also, the 125mm chucks ( which is the min size I would have needed to allow the washer) looked very big on the Myford, and I was concerned that the Chuck my have been too heavy (c 5kg) and damaged the spindle bearings??

                                                  I am now in the process of making a spindle handle, but I want to incorporate a through bore so that if I do decide to change chucks and have a draw bar, I can use it with the handle.

                                                  thanks for the help

                                                  mitch

                                                  #585128
                                                  Neil Lickfold
                                                  Participant
                                                    @neillickfold44316
                                                    Posted by Mitch Lees on 07/02/2022 18:47:29:

                                                    I want to have a go at screw cutting on my Super 7 and it seems that by running the lathe in reverse I can cut away from the chuck – hopefully less stressful! However, I have read that the chuck can unscrew with disasterous consequences! Is some kind of draw bar arrangement the only answer, or is there another solution. Stupid question: is there some way to fit a camlock type chuck – would this help. Any ideas most welcome. Beginner so please bear with me.

                                                    Mitch

                                                    You still need the tool to be close to the chuck, either internal or external threading. While reverse cutting seems easier because the power feed is away from the chuck, the initial part of getting the tool to the shoulder and then reversing is still there. One advantage of threading in normal rotation towards the chuck, is when you have an older lather or one that has slop in the whole assembly. Starting early takes away that slop and you have a great thread right up until the end. Either option will require a thread relief area. Sometimes it is easier to just turn the machine over manually, with either a hand crank or just turning the chuck with your hands. There is no wrong way to do something. Just that some ways pose more risk or danger than other ways. With internal threading and boring, I often either use a marker pen or paper tape, to visually show the max depth of the part to the cut as a guide. In regards to reducing the chuck from coming loose on the Myford S7 , I have often thought of making a ring collar, with a set screw, and then drilling a matching hole through the back of the chuck body, and use a brass or copper plug to make it lock onto the spindle, like some of the Hardinge chucks have with their screw on fixtures etc. The 4jaw for a Myford S7 would need to be drilled right through for this to be effective, something I am reluctant to do myself. If I find that I need a largish work piece that needs to be cut in reverse and would be putting enough load onto the chuck that a risk of it coming loose could happen, then I would drill a hole through it to make a locking pad. The only reason for making an outer ring to carry the set screw, is to not be distorting the chuck body in some some way with the small diameter flange that is on the chuck backplate.

                                                    Most of all, enjoy the model engineering and have fun doing it. It is a great hobby, and many people who are not professional machinist often have great ideas and ways of doing things .

                                                    #585135
                                                    Mitch Lees 1
                                                    Participant
                                                      @mitchlees1

                                                      Neil, thanks. It’s great that so many of you have responded so quickly, and with really positive and helpful advice, I cannot quite visualise what the collar you suggest would bear on, I will try and find a picture of a Hardinge lathe chuck arrangement.
                                                      my P and B 4 jaw does have a larger bore than the lathe spindle, but when gripping work smaller than the chuck bore the back of the jaws are very close to the spindle and so yet again there is no clearance for a draw bar washer.

                                                      mitch

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