Tapers and where to start

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Tapers and where to start

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  • #10760
    Keith Matheson
    Participant
      @keithmatheson47708
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      #535337
      Keith Matheson
      Participant
        @keithmatheson47708

        Hi, I would like to make a stainless part (it’s a location pin for a motorcycle brembo brake calliper if your interested) but it has a taper which I’ve not done for any5hing dimensionally semi serious before. I have enclosed a photo with the dimensions taken from the rusty old original. I’m not really sure what feature to turn first. The more I think about it the more I go around in circles. I guess I could just start cutting and learn how NOT to do it but would prefer some wise words to gently point me in the right direction. (Just for the record Before anyone starts posting it’s not massively critical as it just lines up a spring clip into a central position. ) e2ce04d3-69d1-46a4-bfb7-e2de001a3e24.jpegAs always I appreciate all your wise contributions. Best regards keith MM

        #535339
        Hopper
        Participant
          @hopper

          Looks like something off my 1981 BMW R100RS, anti rattle spring retaining clip? So as you say, the taper is not critical, is just there to hold the pin centralised, roughly between the two pads.

          I would start one end and work to the other, sliding the material out of the chuck a little for each step to minimise overhang. Turn the first section to the 4.85 diamter first so you have a reference for when your taper is right size. Do the end taper with topslide set to correct angle, with just that part sticking out of the chuck. Then slide rod out a bit more and use turning tool moved back and forth to machine the groove to diameter. Then finish off the square shoulders on the groove with turning tool turned to 90 degrees from the job to make a nice square shoulder. Then slide it out a bit more and do the final taper with topslide set around to the opposite angle. Then cut the job off from the blank with a parting tool.

          #535343
          Keith Matheson
          Participant
            @keithmatheson47708

            Hi topper, that sounds good. Did not even consider only pocking out the bit being turned! Strongly suspect it’s the same bits as yours. This is for my 1977 Ducati darmah. I know you can buy the stainless bits from the usual outlets but don’t want to pay out if it’s a job I can do. Surely that’s why I have a lathe? Thanks for stopping me over thinking the job and just getting on with it best regards keith Mm

            #535344
            noel shelley
            Participant
              @noelshelley55608

              I would go along with hopper, but the groove in the middle I would use a parting cutter. Noel.

              #535345
              SillyOldDuffer
              Moderator
                @sillyoldduffer

                Same as Hopper.

                doubletaper.jpg

                The hard part is making sure the opposite tapers are identical. I'd probably use an angle template, making one if necessary, to ensure the tool runs along rhe edge correctly. Or set the angle up with a DTI to a measured tangent or cosine.

                Dave

                #535356
                not done it yet
                Participant
                  @notdoneityet

                  The hard part is making sure the opposite tapers are identical.

                  No problem if the job is machined between centres – even if the central part is fairly short for the drive dog.

                  #535363
                  Hopper
                  Participant
                    @hopper

                    The angle is not critical. It does not fit in a hole. It just rests on a half-round notch in the brake pad and stops it rattling by benefit of a small leaf spring that presses on the recessed diamter in the middle. .

                    Yes Darmah brakes would be about the same as my R100RS.

                    #535366
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb
                      Posted by not done it yet on 21/03/2021 23:21:22:

                      The hard part is making sure the opposite tapers are identical.

                      No problem if the job is machined between centres – even if the central part is fairly short for the drive dog.

                      Cut outer taper with tool at the back while running in reverse then taper nearest the stock with conventional front turning.

                      I do it a lot when machining a bore and tapered spindle just leave the topslide set at the angle and both will match.

                      #535367
                      Ady1
                      Participant
                        @ady1

                        The taper itself can be created by angling your topslide with a DTI

                        Then move your topslide over distance 10.10 until your DTI on the topslide moves (4.85-3.9) 0.95 for the correct cut angle

                        I use that for MT1 stuff, then scribed a line onto my saddle for future use, total doddle

                        Between centres with an extra bit in the chuck as above

                        GL

                        EDIT the awkward bit will be the furthest from the chuck taper, do a 100% practice cut first, to ensure your topslide does not foul with the tailstock, the job pushes right in towards the tailstock gubbins as you cut the taper

                        The further you go from the chuck the more fiddly the job gets, don't forget the tapers will be opposites so you need to do two separate setups

                        I use Calipers to keep an eye on the min/max diameters of the tapers as the job progresses

                        Edited By Ady1 on 22/03/2021 07:29:14

                        #535374
                        Hopper
                        Participant
                          @hopper

                          This is not a critical taper like a morse taper. No need to use a DTI to set the topslide. The two tapers could be several degrees different and still work ok so setting by the graduations on the topslide will suffice. And no need to use a tail stock if the job is done in three stages and the bar moved out of the chuck for each stage.

                          #535375
                          Hopper
                          Participant
                            @hopper

                            Just to clarify. The pin is in the centre at the top of the caliper shown. It is held in place by the leaf spring that can be seen running over the top of it and back down under and around the pad retaining pin at each end. And the two tapers sit in roughly pressed notches in the brake pads. They dont fit into a tapered hole or anything requiring precision. The pin can't move anywhere as it is captive between the two caliper halves and the spring. The tapers simply encourage the pads to move outwards slightly under vibration so they don't rattle around loose. So getting the angle exact on the tapers is not a critical issue.

                            caliper2.jpg

                            Edited By Hopper on 22/03/2021 08:15:07

                            #535376
                            JasonB
                            Moderator
                              @jasonb

                              If you start with something like 10mm dia bar and then do it in stages from the end there is no real need to use tailstock support or slide the work out for each stage of the work

                              #535386
                              Nick Wheeler
                              Participant
                                @nickwheeler
                                Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 08:13:35:

                                Just to clarify. The pin is in the centre at the top of the caliper shown. It is held in place by the leaf spring that can be seen running over the top of it and back down under and around the pad retaining pin at each end. And the two tapers sit in roughly pressed notches in the brake pads. They dont fit into a tapered hole or anything requiring precision. The pin can't move anywhere as it is captive between the two caliper halves and the spring. The tapers simply encourage the pads to move outwards slightly under vibration so they don't rattle around loose. So getting the angle exact on the tapers is not a critical issue.

                                caliper2.jpg

                                Edited By Hopper on 22/03/2021 08:15:07

                                I wouldn't bother with tapers at all: reduce each end to fit in the notch, and turn a shallow groove in the centre for the spring to sit in.

                                #535389
                                Hopper
                                Participant
                                  @hopper

                                  I would assume Brembo put a taper on there for a reason, most likely to move the pads outwards so they dont drag. Not that hard to replicate the original. Plus if you know the Bevelhead Ducatisti, no end of "experts" would be pointing out to the owner that his anti rattle pins were not original because they are supposed to be tapered. I kid you not. My brother has 1977 900SS that he restored and those guys are freakin nuts.

                                  #535391
                                  Michael Gilligan
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelgilligan61133
                                    Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 08:13:35:

                                    Just to clarify. […]

                                    The tapers simply encourage the pads to move outwards slightly under vibration

                                    .

                                    Nicholas, for info ^^^

                                     

                                    MichaelG.

                                    .

                                    Edit: crossed with Hopper’s own response

                                    Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/03/2021 09:43:24

                                    #535402
                                    Nick Wheeler
                                    Participant
                                      @nickwheeler
                                      Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 09:39:40:

                                      I would assume Brembo put a taper on there for a reason, most likely to move the pads outwards so they dont drag. Not that hard to replicate the original. Plus if you know the Bevelhead Ducatisti, no end of "experts" would be pointing out to the owner that his anti rattle pins were not original because they are supposed to be tapered. I kid you not. My brother has 1977 900SS that he restored and those guys are freakin nuts.

                                      As a would-be hotrodder, I know exactly what you mean!

                                      A couple of conversations spring to mind;

                                      I was told that the late Mini clutch master cylinder and 155/80 tyres on my sister's daily driven Morris 1300 "spoilt the car", although he hadn't noticed the Ford Radiant Red paint on the bottom half of an Old English White car wasn't factory.

                                      one bloke whinged about how long it took to find parts, yet claimed we made thing difficult by using more modern onesdisgust

                                      We had another chat with some woman who was complaining she couldn't find anyone to paint her car in 'proper' cellulose paint because "2-pack always looks wrong. I want it to look like that" – pointing at a friend's Model Y. She was most upset when Jon told her it was painted on his drive, using 2-k base and clear. And being early seventies, her car should have been painted with acrylic….

                                      The best one was overheard at a show, when an adenoidal anorak asked an owner what the car was "before he ruined it". The answer " A bucket of resin, it's a fibreglass replica" got a big laugh.

                                      #535416
                                      Howard Lewis
                                      Participant
                                        @howardlewis46836

                                        If you want to see about turning tapers between centres look at my post of 18/03/2021, 10:40:34 on the Kerry A G lathe thread, and my album which has an illustration on to match my Apprentice notes.

                                        For double ended short tapers, if you centre drill both ends, having offset the Top Slide, turn the taper at one end, and then reverse end for end, and turn the other taper.

                                        Howard

                                        Edited By Howard Lewis on 22/03/2021 12:46:19

                                        #535418
                                        Nick Wheeler
                                        Participant
                                          @nickwheeler
                                          Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/03/2021 09:42:04:

                                          Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 08:13:35:

                                          Just to clarify. […]

                                          The tapers simply encourage the pads to move outwards slightly under vibration

                                          .

                                          Nicholas, for info ^^^

                                          As most callipers use a pretty stiff spring between the pins and and pads to stop the pads rattling, I suspect that is one of those ideas that isn't really necessary. The disc on a push bike will knock the pads back enough for the brakes not to bind, which you really notice.

                                          #535465
                                          Hopper
                                          Participant
                                            @hopper
                                            Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 22/03/2021 13:16:13:

                                            Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/03/2021 09:42:04:

                                            Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 08:13:35:

                                            Just to clarify. […]

                                            The tapers simply encourage the pads to move outwards slightly under vibration

                                            .

                                            Nicholas, for info ^^^

                                             

                                            As most callipers use a pretty stiff spring between the pins and and pads to stop the pads rattling, I suspect that is one of those ideas that isn't really necessary. The disc on a push bike will knock the pads back enough for the brakes not to bind, which you really notice.

                                            Not these calipers. The leaf type spring as seen in the pic is held by the pad retaining pins each end and the middle of the spring bears on the tapered pin which in turn transfers the spring pressure to the pads themselves. This stops the pads from rattling  but does not make the pistons retract  — the piston seals plus any small runout on the disc do that.

                                            Your suggestion earlier of reducing the ends of the pins to fit in the recesses in the pads is dangerous. As the pads wear they need to move inwards. A shoulder where the pin has been reduced instead of a taper would hold them apart and stop them bearing on the disc when brakes are applied.

                                            Stick with Brembo's original design. They just might know more about their brakes calipers than we do.

                                            Edited By Hopper on 22/03/2021 21:41:10

                                            #535737
                                            Nick Wheeler
                                            Participant
                                              @nickwheeler

                                              Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 21:38:57:

                                              Not these calipers. The leaf type spring as seen in the pic is held by the pad retaining pins each end and the middle of the spring bears on the tapered pin which in turn transfers the spring pressure to the pads themselves. This stops the pads from rattling but does not make the pistons retract — the piston seals plus any small runout on the disc do that.

                                              Your suggestion earlier of reducing the ends of the pins to fit in the recesses in the pads is dangerous. As the pads wear they need to move inwards. A shoulder where the pin has been reduced instead of a taper would hold them apart and stop them bearing on the disc when brakes are applied.

                                              Stick with Brembo's original design. They just might know more about their brakes calipers than we do.

                                              Where did I even imply that the springs retract the pistons? The small runout of the disc knocks the pads back. I've never seen a caliper that wouldn't function perfectly as a brake with the anti-rattle springs, of whatever design, removed. Some calipers don't have them.

                                              My suggestion was to not taper the parts but reduce the ends, with a larger diameter in the centre for the spring, like this —+—. The shoulder would be nowhere near the pads, unless the disc wore right through. I have seen that, also solid discs fitted instead of vented, and in both instances sticking pads would have been an improvement…..

                                              #535743
                                              Hopper
                                              Participant
                                                @hopper
                                                Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 24/03/2021 10:27:33:

                                                Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 21:38:57:

                                                Not these calipers. The leaf type spring as seen in the pic is held by the pad retaining pins each end and the middle of the spring bears on the tapered pin which in turn transfers the spring pressure to the pads themselves. This stops the pads from rattling but does not make the pistons retract — the piston seals plus any small runout on the disc do that.

                                                Your suggestion earlier of reducing the ends of the pins to fit in the recesses in the pads is dangerous. As the pads wear they need to move inwards. A shoulder where the pin has been reduced instead of a taper would hold them apart and stop them bearing on the disc when brakes are applied.

                                                Stick with Brembo's original design. They just might know more about their brakes calipers than we do.

                                                 

                                                Where did I even imply that the springs retract the pistons? The small runout of the disc knocks the pads back. I've never seen a caliper that wouldn't function perfectly as a brake with the anti-rattle springs, of whatever design, removed. Some calipers don't have them.

                                                My suggestion was to not taper the parts but reduce the ends, with a larger diameter in the centre for the spring, like this —+—. The shoulder would be nowhere near the pads, unless the disc wore right through. I have seen that, also solid discs fitted instead of vented, and in both instances sticking pads would have been an improvement…..

                                                Why take the risk of making the pin the smaller diameter all the way across and risk it bending under spring pressure? And how is the larger diameter in the middle going to locate the spring? It needs a smaller diameter section for the pin to sit in.

                                                Far safer by far to stick with the original Brembo design. Surely turning a taper on each end of a bit of 5mm bar is not that hard. This is the front brake on a 500lb motorcycle that will do 140mph (with a tailwind, downhill), not the eccentric strap on a model engine sitting on the living room table chuffing away. Stick with the proven safe design.

                                                Edited By Hopper on 24/03/2021 10:58:56

                                                Edited By Hopper on 24/03/2021 10:59:59

                                                #535752
                                                Hopper
                                                Participant
                                                  @hopper
                                                  Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 24/03/2021 10:27:33:

                                                  Posted by Hopper on 22/03/2021 21:38:57:

                                                  Not these calipers. The leaf type spring as seen in the pic is held by the pad retaining pins each end and the middle of the spring bears on the tapered pin which in turn transfers the spring pressure to the pads themselves. This stops the pads from rattling but does not make the pistons retract — the piston seals plus any small runout on the disc do that.

                                                  Your suggestion earlier of reducing the ends of the pins to fit in the recesses in the pads is dangerous. As the pads wear they need to move inwards. A shoulder where the pin has been reduced instead of a taper would hold them apart and stop them bearing on the disc when brakes are applied.

                                                  Stick with Brembo's original design. They just might know more about their brakes calipers than we do.

                                                  Where did I even imply that the springs retract the pistons? The small runout of the disc knocks the pads back. I've never seen a caliper that wouldn't function perfectly as a brake with the anti-rattle springs, of whatever design, removed. Some calipers don't have them.

                                                  I guess I was confused when you said: I suspect that is one of those ideas that isn't really necessary. The disc on a push bike will knock the pads back enough for the brakes not to bind, which you really notice.

                                                  Apologies if I was confused by what you said.

                                                  #535759
                                                  Nick Wheeler
                                                  Participant
                                                    @nickwheeler
                                                    Posted by Hopper on 24/03/2021 11:26:03:I guess I was confused when you said: I suspect that is one of those ideas that isn't really necessary. The disc on a push bike will knock the pads back enough for the brakes not to bind, which you really notice.

                                                    Apologies if I was confused by what you said.

                                                    None takenthumbs up

                                                    my point was that even pedal bike brake discs knock the pads back. If the bloody things haven't seized – they're really fussy.

                                                    As we're talking about Brembo calipers, and motorcycle ones at that, I'd be worried about the rest of the caliper's durability before a slightly modified rattle spring pin….

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