Carbide Tooling

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Carbide Tooling

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  • #10717
    Iain Downs
    Participant
      @iaindowns78295

      How much more value do I get with more cost?

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      #530780
      Iain Downs
      Participant
        @iaindowns78295

        I like carbide tooling. Even on my CMD10 (X1) micro mill I got good results – and better than with HSS.

        On the big mill (Amadeel VMR32L), it's a joy.

        The lathe (CJ18A), I'm more uncertain about, but the insert parting tool is a wonder (depending on material) and aluminium inserts work well on steel as well as ally.

        So what's my problem? Well, for the main part, I buy cheap stuff from eBay. I have learned my lesson about the eBay title. A tool which says it's carbide in the title, often says it's HSS in the description. If it looks too good…

        I also buy inserts (cheap end) from ARC.

        What I find is that most of my tools chip if I sneeze too hard. There are some exceptions. I've some reground name carbide end mills which I LOVE that I got from ebay and seen (relativey) indestructible. Also some indexed facemills (also from ARC) which work well and so far haven't given me any problems despite being worked hard (blue chips and all that).

        My (other) carbide end mills seem to have a short life. If the fall out of the collet, they chip. If I take too harsh cut they chip. If there's a hard metal (e.g. a bolt or screw) in the piece, they chip.

        On the lathe, the aluminium inserts chip if they look at a piece – the nice thing is they seem to still keep cutting well even when broken! The steel inserts last a bit longer, but don't always give great results (depending on material). In fairness, I probably can't push the lathe hard enough to work them.

        My question is this. If I spend a lot more money, with the tools be more robust? How much longer will they last. Yes I probably am a bit cack-handed, so that needs to be factored in.

        Should I spent twice as much on a sumitomo insert from ARC? 40% more for an ARC carbide endmill (vs eBay) or 3/4 times as much for a kenametal (or similar).

        I'm not arguing that more expensive is better, but I'm more concerned about robustness than wear. It the more expensive ones chip as much, then I won't get the benefit them them in their old age as they still retain their sharpness.

        Iain

        #530785
        Dave Halford
        Participant
          @davehalford22513

          You need inserts for interrupted cuts for the lathe and mill be it's nature delivers the same type of cut – you don't get that sort of info with the Chinese cheapies.

          I use 0.4mm dia points if you are using 0.2mm that might be why.

          #530787
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            I've not had problems with chipping unless I'm careless both on the lathe and mill and will mostly have to change tips when worn rather than chipped. I don't buy anything special for interrupted cuts and have no problems on square, hex or off shaped parts or even a rough sawn end on a round bar can give interrupted cuts.

            I don't tend to buy top of the range or bargain basement either going for middle of the road ARC, APT or Kennametal. Most of my lathe tips are 0.2mm tip radius and in the case of the Kennametal sold as "light Finishing"

            #530833
            old mart
            Participant
              @oldmart

              I would tend to say no, you are doing very nicely with the kit you already have. Bargains do come up on ebay from time to time, I have some resharpened solid carbide endmills which would have cost 4 times what I paid when new. I also bought some second hand 6mm solid carbide endmills very cheaply, and when they arrived, I quickly bought the rest of the stock before somebody beat me to it. They get used for rough jobs and still keep cutting.

              Get used to putting a soft landing pad under the cutter when loosening the collet, it saves those pesky chips.

              #530854
              Martin Dowing
              Participant
                @martindowing58466

                I was buying boxes of 10 of different inserts on Ali and they was working good.

                One lot was exceptionally good so I have written to Chinese distributor and enquired about 1000.

                Inserts are nominally made by Japs (branded as Mitsubishi Materials) but sold from China.

                They offered discount and got them for $200 total. They should last for life of turning. They are CCMT 6mm inserts.

                #530871
                Steviegtr
                Participant
                  @steviegtr

                  Hi Iain.

                  I bought a large amount of carbide cutters some time ago. These are top or good quality ones . I did as you say make a boo boo with one of them by dropping it from memory. Or coming into the work to fast. See pic.

                  But when treated with respect they are quite an amazing cutter to have in your arsenal. Just yesterday i was cutting steel for some vice holding clamps & the ease of cut & finish was very good.

                  Steve.

                  carbide.jpg

                  carbide swiss tech.jpg

                  #530882
                  Ron Laden
                  Participant
                    @ronladen17547

                    I use the ARC inserts and wouldn't call them "cheap end" by any means they are far better than the cheap ones I have tried and consider them to be mid price range.

                    I don't have problems with them chipping and with all due respect is it what you describe as your "cack-handedness" that's the problem. Would improving how they are been used give less problems and I can't see "spending a lot more money" is going to help. One would assume that top of the range expensive cutting tools would be better overall but I would hate to think I was spending 3 or 4 times as much and then pushing them too hard or outside what they are happy with.

                    #530908
                    Martin Connelly
                    Participant
                      @martinconnelly55370

                      Your post makes it sound like you are loosening collets in a vertical mill and allowing the tool to fall working edge first onto the material/vice/machine below it. Not a good idea but i might just be mis-interpreting what you wrote.

                      Regarding chipping of carbide in the lathe, the only issues I have had with unexpectedly premature destruction of the carbide tip is if the tip is pushed in the wrong direction by manually moving the chuck when there is subsequent contact with the tips or if the part is rotated in reverse and not noticed until too late. If this happens it takes next to no effort to chip the edge and may not be noticed until it is used the correct way round and falls apart. The last one I chipped like this I needed to invert the tool I was using to get into an odd position on the right and working away from the chuck and forgot to reverse the spindle.

                      Martin C

                      #530925
                      Emgee
                      Participant
                        @emgee

                        It's not just the cheap tool inserts that chip easily, even the recognised top brands will break if moved onto a non-revolving part, especially the GT type that many now use.

                        Emgee

                        #530936
                        Tony Pratt 1
                        Participant
                          @tonypratt1

                          Guess what guys cutting tools are brittle.wink

                          Tony

                          #531474
                          Iain Downs
                          Participant
                            @iaindowns78295

                            Thanks all.

                            Jason: Do you buy the cheap ARC tooling or the sumitomo?

                            old mart: Most of my problems came due to my 10mm collet being a bit oversized so anything would just fall out. I've now replaced the collet, which now holds a 10mm end mill OK when relaxed. But a mat is a very good idea.

                            What I'm trying to get my head round is how a part can continuously bash into a cutter at 20mph (interrupted cut) and that is good, but if you bump it at a snails pace it breaks. How can this be?

                            Iain

                            #531483
                            Martin Connelly
                            Participant
                              @martinconnelly55370

                              At high rpm the velocity vector will always be close to vertically downwards or in a direction where the cutting edge has support behind it unless you drive the insert towards the workpiece at silly fast rates. At low rpm the velocity vector can go more towards horizontal which inserts are not designed to handle. A zero rpm will always be a horizontal velocity vector and there is then no support behind the cutting edge on a lot of inserts.

                              Martin C

                              #531487
                              Dave Halford
                              Participant
                                @davehalford22513

                                If you are getting chipped inserts when 'touching off' use a light behind the tip so you can see the gap clearer.

                                #531492
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb
                                  Posted by Iain Downs on 03/03/2021 17:10:14:

                                  Jason: Do you buy the cheap ARC tooling or the sumitomo?

                                  Actually not much of their turning stuff, CCMT is usually Kennametal where you can pick up a box for around £10 (5 in their boxes) and the others mostly from APT about £3 each as they do more shapes and 0.2mm radius which I mostly use on both **Mt and **GT.

                                  I do use ARC's milling inserts and can't tell any difference between results from them and Korloy but both are considerably better than really cheap BG that I have tried same for BG's turning inserts.

                                  On the Milling front I do use ARC's Premium HSS in 10 and 12mm sizes mostly as well as a few of their premium Carbide milling cutters. Small HSS is often 3-flute "disposables" by Hertel as the price is right and 6mm and under carbide cutters for the CNC mostly come from APT again as they do types that ARC don't though I do have some ARC ones as well as New Century which are from YG-1's china factory rather than the main Korean one.

                                  #531497
                                  Tony Pratt 1
                                  Participant
                                    @tonypratt1
                                    Posted by Martin Connelly on 03/03/2021 17:39:25:

                                    At high rpm the velocity vector will always be close to vertically downwards or in a direction where the cutting edge has support behind it unless you drive the insert towards the workpiece at silly fast rates. At low rpm the velocity vector can go more towards horizontal which inserts are not designed to handle. A zero rpm will always be a horizontal velocity vector and there is then no support behind the cutting edge on a lot of inserts.

                                    Martin C

                                    That explains it then.crook

                                    Tony

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