Could I try an IC engine?

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Could I try an IC engine?

Home Forums Beginners questions Could I try an IC engine?

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  • #526443
    Paul Horth
    Participant
      @paulhorth66944

      Hello,

      I am not a complete beginner, I have built and operated a 2 inch scale traction engine. I have been vaguely thinking about trying a 4 stroke IC engine, however it seems that the precision needed is at a higher level than for a steam engine. In particular, I am wondering about making the camshaft. I have read some posts on this forum, including the post from David K and the replies to him back in 2019..

      My specific question now is about the precision needed for angular location of the cams relative to each other and to the register which locates the shaft in the timing gear. I do not have a milling machine or a rotary table. I reckon I could have a go at filing the cam flanks to a horizontal guide, using a micrometer, with the shaft in the lathe chuck, but setting the angular positions accurately would not be possible without some kind of dividing head.

      I wonder how camshafts were produced in the 40s and 50s when milling machines and rotary tables would not have been possessed by many amateurs.

      There are other precision tasks which would be difficult for me, such as making the valves tight, and getting the crankshaft bearings in alignment..

      I would be interested in any comments, thanks.

      Paul

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      #10682
      Paul Horth
      Participant
        @paulhorth66944

        What skills and equipment should I have?

        #526448
        Bo’sun
        Participant
          @bosun58570

          Hi Paul,

          Have a look at Andrew Whale's "hit & miss" engine. It might not be exactly what you're looking for, but an interesting IC project non the less.

          #526454
          Andy_G
          Participant
            @andy_g
            Posted by Paul Horth on 11/02/2021 16:37:24:

            My specific question now is about the precision needed for angular location of the cams relative to each other and to the register which locates the shaft in the timing gear.

            In truth, as long as one is not looking at a high performance ("racing" )  engine, they don't need to be very accurate to get a running engine – maybe 5 degrees, or so? You could probably get away with 10.

            There's a way of cutting certain cam profiles fairly accurately on a lathe using a series of arcs which is straightforward, but a little tedious.

             

            Edited By Andy_G on 11/02/2021 17:25:29

            #526455
            JasonB
            Moderator
              @jasonb

              A lot will depend on the type of IC engine. A high performance multi cylinder engine will need it's cams to be quite accurate and all lined up correctly. On the other hand a slow reving old school engine or Hit & miss type could use an atmospheric inlet (opens due to vacuum caused by piston going down) so only needs an exhaust valve. The single cams are not too fussy on timing so could be filed up and just use a grub screw to locate it on the cam shaft or peg.

              Valve sealing is no different to getting a regulator, clack or steam valve to seal on a steam engine.

              #527019
              Paul Horth
              Participant
                @paulhorth66944

                Thanks, gents, for the replies, they were most helpful for me.

                I was considering the Westbury Seagull two cylinder engine, available as a kit of castings from Hemingway. Then, doing a little more research, I came across the excellent diary of building this engine by Charles Lamont :

                **LINK**

                This description of his workings, all to tenths of a thou, I found pretty terrifying, with so many problems in making the cams, for a man who is evidently highly experienced. He ended up building his own camshaft grinder. Mr. Lamont is to be applauded for setting out this diary and for his sheer persistence, but the project is clearly beyond my horizon .

                Even if I completed the engine I would then have to produce the auxiliaries, water pump, radiator with fan, coupling or pulley for power takeoff, and some kind of clutch, plus something for the engine to drive. Put it in a boat? God forbid!

                Paul

                #527020
                bernard towers
                Participant
                  @bernardtowers37738

                  Try the Westbury Jig. It is lathe orientated.

                  #527031
                  Andy_G
                  Participant
                    @andy_g
                    Posted by Paul Horth on 13/02/2021 21:40:49:

                    I was considering the Westbury Seagull two cylinder engine, available as a kit of castings from Hemingway.

                    Charles Lamont sets himself an impressively high bar!

                    I've also looked in depth at the Seagull and like you, discovered it is not at all straightforward due to the number of errors in the drawings and the marginal nature of the castings.(See also https://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Seagull_revisited.html ).

                    However,

                    As far as I know, there is no requirement to harden and grind the cams for this type of engine (although one may wish to for authenticity).

                    The end of this video shows how cams can be machined on a lathe:

                    I'd be intrigued to find out more about the Westbury 'Jig' (I can't find anything by searching for it).
                    Failing that, I might cobble up my own twin cylinder.
                    #527052
                    John Olsen
                    Participant
                      @johnolsen79199

                      You may not have the skills required now, but you will by the time you finish, possibly discarding a few pieces along the way. That's how it works for most of us, we try something ambitious and learn as we go.

                      I think the Westbury jig is a way of machining cams in the lathe, if someone has a reference I probably have the magazine articles in my shed.

                      John

                      #527054
                      Danny M2Z
                      Participant
                        @dannym2z
                        Posted by Paul Horth on 11/02/2021 16:37:24:

                        Hello,

                        I am not a complete beginner, I have built and operated a 2 inch scale traction engine. I have been vaguely thinking about trying a 4 stroke IC engine, however it seems that the precision needed is at a higher level than for a steam engine. In particular, I am wondering about making the camshaft. I have read some posts on this forum, including the post from David K and the replies to him back in 2019

                        Paul

                        Maybe start off with a 2 stroke model engine. A model diesel engine would give you a good feel for 'fit's''. It's not too hard to learn but takes patience.

                        The cams in a 4-stroke engine take a bit of a beating, as do the cam followers and the rockers so unless it's a display engine (demo runs only) then consider case hardening and grinding the relevant parts if you want it to last more than an hour.

                        * Danny*

                        #527055
                        not done it yet
                        Participant
                          @notdoneityet

                          I’m not a model maker but as I see it, the requirement might be to measure to tenths, but machining to the next whole thous above is ‘all’ that is needed.

                          As long as (male fitting) parts are not made too small, those last few tenths are a matter of grinding (abrading), polishing, lapping and honing.

                          Reducing the outside of a part by a few tenths is far easier than increasing an internal dimension, although cylinder lapping tools are good for preparing the inner surface to be ready for finishing. As long as, say two cylinders, are within a thous (or so?) on diameter it makes no difference as long as the pistons fit their relevant bore.

                          Start with a simple one and progress from there. With care, the Seal should be doable. It does not turn at a million rpm and parts – other than the castings – can be made again if you are not happy with the first (or second) attempt.

                          Confidence in your machinery is an important factor as well as your ability. If you are determined, you can do it. There is -plenty of help/advice available on the forum if you need it. Go for it, I say.

                          Also, perhaps have a look at Allen Millyard’s videos on youtube. Quite basic machining facilities but it does not stop him making a crankshaft for a high revving 6 cylinder engine (built up by hacksawing apart, and then welding together, a couple of 4 cylinder motorcycle engines). The crank build used very little from one of the original engines.

                          #527060
                          JasonB
                          Moderator
                            @jasonb

                            You could pick a design where each cam is made as a separate part, hardened and then Loctited onto a silver steel shaft. Avoids any distortion when hardening, less to remake if a cam goes wrong, simpler to machine individual cams. Nemet Bobcat springs to mind as a two cylinder and being barstock no undersize or expensive castings to worry about.

                            Might even be possible to use the single cam method on the seagull

                             

                            Edited By JasonB on 14/02/2021 07:33:09

                            #527077
                            DiogenesII
                            Participant
                              @diogenesii

                              There's several discussions and approaches here that might be useful;

                              ModelEngineNews Cams for Small Fourstrokes

                              ..including a description of Graham Meek's attack on the Seagull cams..

                              #527095
                              Mike Hurley
                              Participant
                                @mikehurley60381

                                Totally agree with John Olsen. Push yourself with a project and you'll learn as you go. I have made this and that over the years and have a lot of general skills but since I went the route of a big 'Challenging' project (see Ongoing projects…) boy have I learned a massive amount – including how to 'make do' with tricky parts and not having the 'right' equipment or tooling. Scrap box got very big over the last few years and there have been times when I've felt overwhelmed by problems and at the point of calling it a day, but persevere and you get such pleasure from succeeding!

                                Best of luck whatever you go for. Keep the forum posted as you go along. Regards Mike

                                #527099
                                Andy_G
                                Participant
                                  @andy_g
                                  Posted by Danny M2Z on 14/02/2021 05:53:33:

                                  The cams in a 4-stroke engine take a bit of a beating, as do the cam followers and the rockers so unless it's a display engine (demo runs only) then consider case hardening and grinding the relevant parts if you want it to last more than an hour.

                                  * Danny*

                                  Is that still the case with something as slow revving as the Seagull? (Asking, not arguing! )

                                  FWIW, the Seagull's cams are machined as pairs and 'loctited' onto the camshaft.

                                  #527333
                                  Roger B
                                  Participant
                                    @rogerb61624

                                    Yes you are quite capable. There will be a few 'trial' pieces as you learn but you will get a working engine. I would recommend an overhead valve four stroke as this separates the various problems. The cylinder on a two stroke has al the difficult parts in one piece. One mistake and you start again.

                                    The key is the quality and fit of the bore and piston. This will probably require a couple of goes (at least). Cams are not a real problem for small engines unless you are going to race or fly them. Most model engines run a few hours per year. Cams and followers can be made from silver steel (drill rod) and hardened and polished. Mine are made in a series of steps on a mill but careful filling to a paper template should work ( a lot of experiments on full size engines were made in this way).

                                    Give it a go, there will be plenty of help and advice available on the way.

                                    #527409
                                    Roger B
                                    Participant
                                      @rogerb61624

                                      This is my first cam milling setup using a vertical slide. The blank is indexed using a 60 tooth changewheel with a paper degree scale stuck on. The depth of each cut is set using a DTI at the back of the cross slide and the slides are 'locked' with a G clamp. I now do much the same on a milling machine. The maching marks are cleaned up with a swiss file before hardening.

                                      70 slides locked for added rigidity.jpg

                                      67 setup for milling cams.jpg

                                      #527454
                                      Paul Horth
                                      Participant
                                        @paulhorth66944

                                        Thanks to all of you for the encouraging and helpful messages with plenty of useful information. It's still very much a thought experiment for me.

                                        I think I would be able to produce a camshaft using the turning jig method, without needing a rotary table, milling machine or a grinder. It is reassuring to see that a decent sized paper disc marked out in degrees is good enough to be practical, though I am surprised that the one inch disc with marker pen lines, shown in the video clip from Andy G. would be precise enough. Some kind of pointer has to be registered to the shaft, to operate this system. The complicated method used by Graham Meek in the link from Diogenes, or that used by Charles Lamont, would be too much too much trouble for me.

                                        I understand Jason's point on making the cams in pairs, on the turning jig, which I could case harden, and polish, then mount on the unhardened shaft, though I would need to devise a method to set the angular positions of the pairs relative to each other and to the shaft keyway. With all four cams made together this would be taken care of. The pairs would have to be drilled through after making, then the excess shaft length cut off, before hardening.

                                        I could use milling in the vertical slide as shown by Roger B, though this would need a reducing sleeve with two keyways to register the change wheel to the shaft, and 60 teeth would not enable the 130 degree setting for the exhaust cam flanks. But, in principle I could do it.

                                        So each method has its pros and cons, with balances of time, effort and precision to be decided.

                                        I understand the point about the fit of piston to bore, it has to be much closer than in a steam engine. This is one reason why a diesel engine would not be my choice because this fit has to be even closer than for a four stroke. And not only do I need a close fit, but it has to be dimensionally accurate, to use piston rings as provided in the kit.

                                        My aim would be to produce an engine which could run on a table top setup, and, importantly for me, would drive a load which could be regulated. No ideas yet on what would be practical for that. Thinking is a lot easier and quicker than doing!

                                        Paul

                                        #527469
                                        bernard towers
                                        Participant
                                          @bernardtowers37738

                                          Sorry not kept up with the thread but the Westbury jig is in ME 12th July 1962 pages 56/7, if you need copies I will scan and send plus a photo of my jig. Note this is for cam flanks.

                                          #527493
                                          Roger B
                                          Participant
                                            @rogerb61624

                                            The method I use mills the cam using a series of tangents so various angles can be used. I set them out on a spread sheet with the angle and depth of cut, ticking each one off when complete. There are various programmes around for generating the steps from the cam data.

                                            This engine was built on a minilathe using a vertical slide. I initially used an O ring to seal the piston but later made a cast iron piston ring.

                                            **LINK**

                                            cam spreadsheet.jpg

                                            cam generation.jpg

                                            #527583
                                            Andy_G
                                            Participant
                                              @andy_g
                                              Posted by bernard towers on 15/02/2021 13:30:22:

                                              Sorry not kept up with the thread but the Westbury jig is in ME 12th July 1962 pages 56/7, if you need copies I will scan and send plus a photo of my jig. Note this is for cam flanks.

                                              Sorry – I thought you were referring to an engine design (My fault!). I'm guessing it is the same one as in the Seal construction article – Link and also the type used in the video above.

                                              #527719
                                              Paul Horth
                                              Participant
                                                @paulhorth66944

                                                Hello again,

                                                The forum has helped me greatly with my questions about making the camshaft. I would now like to ask about the crankshaft for the two cylinder Seagull.

                                                Is there any objection to making a built up crankshaft instead of turning from the solid? It seems to me easier to make the two sets of webs and crankpins separately, held offset in the 4-jaw chuck, then put the shaft through both of them and silver soldering, with a spacer between the two throws. Align the crankpins by drilling through and putting a rod through both. Cut away the surplus shaft between the webs. Alignment is guaranteed. Less swarf, and easier to turn the pins when close to the chuck.

                                                I made the crankshaft for my traction engine by silver soldering an oversize shaft through a block and turning the pin with throw pieces, then turning the shaft down to size. It was fine. Shaft is ten inches x 1/2 inch, throw 1 inch.

                                                Paul

                                                #527743
                                                Andy_G
                                                Participant
                                                  @andy_g

                                                  That’s the way I would propose to do it. It’s the way I made my one and only single cylinder IC engine crank shaft. (Steel crank webs silver soldered to silver steel shaft & crank pin).

                                                  I await more learned comments with interest.

                                                  #527752
                                                  Roger B
                                                  Participant
                                                    @rogerb61624

                                                    Built up crankshafts are fine. Silver soldering will work as will Loctite.

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