Working mild to hard steel

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Working mild to hard steel

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  • #458831
    Ian Campbell 9
    Participant
      @iancampbell9

      So looking at starting a long term project and slowly turning my outhouse into a little metal shop to make basic metal ware items that i use in angling and maybe other items further down the road

      I would like to turn what we call Bobbins in angling as well as hockey stick bankstick collars, and rod support bars it would involve working round bar stock and i would like to use a mix of materials ranging from aluminium, brass mild steel and some patterned Damascus steel round bar stock that is used in watch making, not the knife stuff, i have no Interest in making knifes.

      Machines I have been looking at are in the £600 range for a lathe and around £300 for a mill at some point the lathe would come first.

      Found a few in the Proxxon hobby rage that look nice or a Japanese make called Osaki.

      The space i have to work in is small, 170 cm in length and 109 cm wide with a concrete floor .

      I have some operator experience in machining from previous factory jobs in automotive CNC machining which should help in the safe use of a lathe but manual tool work is a bit of a new venture for me, the work will be mainly treading and screw cutting.

      Hope that covers my basic requirements any help would be much appreciated, I live in Coventry and make a damn good cuppa if i do say so myself.

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      #10127
      Ian Campbell 9
      Participant
        @iancampbell9
        #458835
        Anonymous

          If you want to single point screw threads be aware that many small lathes aren't set up for screwcutting and/or only cut a very limited range of pitches. You may need to make a list of threads to be cut and then select a suitable lathe.

          Andrew

          #458845
          Martin Connelly
          Participant
            @martinconnelly55370

            I have seen a Proxon metalworking lathe that has a speed range of 500 to 5000 rpm. 500 will be electronically controlled and so will probably be reduced power. Given that the maximum size that can sensibly be turned at 500 rpm in mild steel with HSS is about 16mm (5/8" )  diameter when you have plenty of power available you have to be very careful with buying one of these machines. It could result in major disappointment when it fails to do what you want with steel of any type. I would ask if someone with one of these can describe their experience using them with steel.

            If you are considering any sort of screw cutting under power then 500 rpm is crazy fast.

            Martin C

            Edited out emoji (grr)

            Edited By Martin Connelly on 22/03/2020 11:42:36

            #458881
            John Haine
            Participant
              @johnhaine32865

              I have not been impressed with the Proxxon stuff I have bought. Their cheap lathe has an aluminium bed while the expensive one is stupidly expensive and I think I recall some bad experiences people on here have had with it (or maybe the cheap one). And it doesn't have that many features you don't get in a generic mini-lathe.

              That Osaki lathe looks rather like the generic mini-lathes from other suppliers. I think people have had good experience with these generally, they have cast iron beds and depending on the exact model and supplier a good speed range. Several people on here have bought machine tools from Arc Eurotrade (see advert on this home page) and found them a very good supplier (usual disclaimer). Have a look at their SC2 machine.

              #458882
              Ian Campbell 9
              Participant
                @iancampbell9

                Thanks for the replies.

                So it looks like the entry level lathes will not do the work i want, i did think that myself I'm happy to spend more on a capable lathe some of the Axminster rage or Clarke could be an option or maybe a more beefy Proxon as the jobs will be small size, screw cuts and threading would be 3/8" BSF, any help with tooling to achieve this would be welcome,

                Working steel is essential in what i want to make so capable machine suggestions in their lowest price rage would be what I'm looking for, thanks.

                #458894
                Ian Campbell 9
                Participant
                  @iancampbell9
                  Posted by John Haine on 22/03/2020 13:40:36:

                  I have not been impressed with the Proxxon stuff I have bought. Their cheap lathe has an aluminium bed while the expensive one is stupidly expensive and I think I recall some bad experiences people on here have had with it (or maybe the cheap one). And it doesn't have that many features you don't get in a generic mini-lathe.

                  That Osaki lathe looks rather like the generic mini-lathes from other suppliers. I think people have had good experience with these generally, they have cast iron beds and depending on the exact model and supplier a good speed range. Several people on here have bought machine tools from Arc Eurotrade (see advert on this home page) and found them a very good supplier (usual disclaimer). Have a look at their SC2 machine.

                  Didn't see your post before my previous reply, the proxxons sure do rise in price the Arc Euro trade looks like a good starting point and they are in Leicester fairly local.

                  #458896
                  Bazyle
                  Participant
                    @bazyle

                    Which country are you in? And perhaps nearest town as we can then have an idea of what might be available.

                    It doesn't sound like you are planning anything super precision so a second hand lathe like that would give you a start to understand the principles. Don't be in a rush. Look at ebay to see some types that are being sold and look them up on Lathes.co.uk. You can compare the photos on ebay to the photos on the above Lathes site to see what is missing as often old back of shed lathes are short of a few bit that can be expensive to get. If in England I'd suggest a Drummond M-type.

                    Oh yea one last bit of advice. Build a bigger shed laugh

                    #458897
                    Martin of Wick
                    Participant
                      @martinofwick

                      Ian

                      plenty of choice available within your budget in the generic Chinese mini lathe market – various suppliers advertise on this site. Bear in mind you will have to have some budget for tooling as well – at least 20-30% of lathe cost as a start.

                      You won't get much of a mill for your quoted budget, I have had some of those at the small end SX1 or SX 2 class of machine and found they are just about OK with non ferrous and a pita for anything harder. You may need to budget between 1 and 2 times your lathe budget for a new machine compatible with the capacity of a mini lathe, the lower end being OK if you are sticking to small stuff. It seems manual mills just need to be that much bigger and stiffer to do decent work otherwise you are in for a lot of handwheel twirling.

                      Second hand is always an option. You need to know what you are looking for. It can also be a bit of a long and drawn out process and in the end the savings rarely turn out to be that significant for the smaller stuff. Avoid old British iron in the smaller sizes, unless it is immaculate with all tooling etc. or unless you enjoy the tedious prospect of lengthy refurbishments.

                      Edited By Martin of Wick on 22/03/2020 15:26:01

                      #458898
                      old mart
                      Participant
                        @oldmart

                        The generic Chinese 7 X 12 lathes have screwcutting abilities and attachments give limited milling. It is surprising what you can do with one when space and budget are limited.

                        By the way, welcome to the forum, Ian.

                        Edited By old mart on 22/03/2020 15:25:49

                        #458915
                        Frances IoM
                        Participant
                          @francesiom58905

                          I suspect the Warco WM180 or lookalikes are at the entry level that will do what you want tho not always conveniently as changing gears for screwcutting is not that quick and it won’t do LH threads nor is there any easy way of mounting material on the cross-slide for simple milling (tho both these can be overcome with various modifications) – if you intend to do much screw cutting then a machine with a gearbox makes life easier but check it will do the range of imperial (BSF) and the more common these days metric threads.

                          The 1.7m will be barely enough to fit a lathe and a mill with its table, side by side

                          #458924
                          Howard Lewis
                          Participant
                            @howardlewis46836

                            Welcome!

                            If in doubt, buy a machine one size larger than you think that you need. You find other things to do as you become more used to the machining. If you think that a SC3 is what you need, can the budget expand to a SC4? The larger machine will do the same jobs, and extra ones also.

                            Squeezing a lathe and a mill into 1.7 metres will need a large shoehorn. For me that would suffice for a small lathe, but not both. £600 may get you something like a SC3, but a mill for £300 sounds pretty small.

                            And don't forget to make allowance for buying tooling and accessories!.

                            I managed without a Mill for a few years. If push comes to shove, You can mill in a lathe without a Vertical Slide.

                            (Some can be a bit flexible, IF it can be fitted to the lathe ) Holding the job in the Toolpost, (or on the Cross Slide ) and an End Mill in the chuck may be a more rigid way of doing the work.

                            For screwcutting, I would have making a Mandrel Handle as one of my earliest priorities.

                            Sensibly, you would not use Taps or Dies under power. (I do, but use the "jog" facility of the VFD, and can still get bit wrong, which you are unlikely to have ) Low speed may risk overheating the motor, and it will not stop instantly, so the Tap or Die could hit the end and either strip the new thread or break and scrap the job.

                            Rotating the lathe by hand keeps the speed low, and you can feel the torque being applied, with the ability for an instant stop.

                            Better to start by making some accessories such a a Mandrel Handle, and Centre Height Gauge, than rushing into things and possibly wasting material and time having disasters.

                            Howard

                            .

                            #458949
                            Bazyle
                            Participant
                              @bazyle

                              Most model engineers before the '70s didn't have a mill and just look at all the superb models and other jobs made without one. By putting your meagre mill money into the lathe budget you can get a more capable lathe that can do some milling with a vertical slide.
                              One advantage of a second hand machine (that is still fully operational not the back of the shed for 30 years kind) is that it will often come with the basic tooling you need.

                              You do need a bench grinder, about £45 so you might as well get that right away as you can always sharpen your pencils on it if nothing else. Both I and my Men's Shed have this.
                              Don't put aside more that £20 for tooling. You need to put everything into the lathe as you can later on find another £20 for a tool but you can't go out and buy another inch capacity for the lathe.
                              The only tools you need for the lathe are 1) 4 jaw chuck 2) tailstock drill chuck 3) one 1/4 in square HSS toolbit used off ebay – it has 2 ends so two tools in one.
                              A 3 jaw chuck is nice to have, preferably with both sets of jaws.
                              It will take you a few weeks to outgrow the above meagre tooling giving you time to save up for the next phase.

                              On day one you don't need steadies, collets, insert tooling, sets of tools, carbide tools, quick change toolposts, quickchange gearboxes, sets of tools (yeah I know I said that already but you didn't listen last time).

                              #458976
                              Bazyle
                              Participant
                                @bazyle

                                wrong thread

                                Edited By Bazyle on 22/03/2020 21:03:30

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